So, should I be irritated at this?

Greig · April 15, 2014 5:23AM

I sold a bunch of lower-priced Swiss coins on Ebay 10 days ago. I took the usual obverse/reverse photos for the listings. One guy buys several of the coins, then almost immediately lists them on Ebay with starting prices in excess of what he paid me - no problem; they're his coins to do with as he chooses. But he also uses the photos I took of the coins for his listings.

I certainly cannot argue the photos don't represent the coins accurately, since I used them. But I was a little troubled by his using them without even asking me if I were OK with his doing so.

This is obviously not a big deal, but I am curious as to whether you all think he acted properly?

mrpotatoheadd · April 15, 2014 5:58AM

If he wanted to use your pictures, he should have asked for permission. What he did is not only a violation of eBay policy but of common courtesy, too.

Swampboy · April 15, 2014 5:59AM

Just because you ran into a rude guy doesn't mean you have waste your day in an irritatted state.
Blow it off is my advice.

ajaan · April 15, 2014 5:59AM

<< <i>What he did is not only a violation of eBay policy but of common courtesy, too. >>

and against US copyright laws also.

SaorAlba · April 15, 2014 6:46AM

Bad form and technically illegal, but unless you have a real monetary loss I would just move on and not stress out about it.

Bailathacl · April 15, 2014 8:26AM

I find that if I have to ask whether I should be irritated by something, the answer almost always is "no".

If it were important to a me that my photography -- such as it is -- not be used by a subsequent owner of the coin, I would add a watermark with my name to the photo, or add proprietary text across the bottom of the photo, as some sellers do. This technique might discourage re-use of the photo and the accompanying feelings of violation. My thinking is that the post-auction photo is no longer of use to me as a seller, and that a buyer may benefit from recycling the photograph. This might be a boon to the buyer, but I suffer no harm by it.

eBay policy aside, I am personally untroubled as to how my photo might live on after an auction, in the same way that I am not curious who drives any cars that I trade in or who dates my ex-wife. That said, reasonable minds can respectfully disagree as always.

Aethelred · April 15, 2014 11:45AM

I can understand how you feel. I know that I am not a very good photographer (of coins or anything else), but it would annoy me if someone used one of my photos without permission. That said, I have been asked many times and as of yet I have never said no. If someone wanted to use a photo for something that I had a moral or ethical issue with I would say no and I would say no to someone who used a photo without my permission or without giving proper credit in the past.

bronco2078 · April 15, 2014 11:49AM

<< <i>I find that if I have to ask whether I should be irritated by something, the answer almost always is "no".

If it were important to a me that my photography -- such as it is -- not be used by a subsequent owner of the coin, I would add a watermark with my name to the photo, or add proprietary text across the bottom of the photo, as some sellers do. This technique might discourage re-use of the photo and the accompanying feelings of violation. My thinking is that the post-auction photo is no longer of use to me as a seller, and that a buyer may benefit from recycling the photograph. This might be a boon to the buyer, but I suffer no harm by it.

eBay policy aside, I am personally untroubled as to how my photo might live on after an auction, in the same way that I am not curious who drives any cars that I trade in or who dates my ex-wife. That said, reasonable minds can respectfully disagree as always. >>

Spot on , it's only happened to me once probably because most of my items are truck parts but I could care less either. Hopefully he opened the box carefully you mailed them in so he could reuse that too.

In any case, if his business plan involves paying ebay retail for items then reselling them he won't be around long.

Zohar · April 15, 2014 12:09PM

I don't mind as I view the images being purchased along with the coin. Once the sale is concluded, buyer is free to pursue anything they desire.

YQQ · April 15, 2014 12:41PM

100% illegal. These are your images until you give permission to use them or you sell them. that you sold the subject is not relevant at all.
If you complain to Ebay about the copyright infringement, they will remove his listing.
It is not relevant if the images are of any future use to you or not. They are your property and as such are protected by international copyright laws.

I had an issue with a well known Canadian coin publication. One of their contributors lifted my images about some error coins right from this (HERE) forum and published them
My email address was clearly on two of the images....
All he had to do is ask for permission to use them. and i would have gladly said yes.
But he did not.
we settled the issue after e few emails back and forth.

Walter · April 15, 2014 12:56PM

Technically they're your photos and he requires your permission to use them, but what's the harm?

1960NYGiants · April 15, 2014 9:39PM

You could report him to eBay for using stolen photos.

YQQ · April 16, 2014 12:29AM

Walter,
I hope you meant legally.

assume , you are rich rich.. and someone steals $ 100 from you in a devious way.
it will not hurt you.
would you still say : technically it is my 100 dollars , but whats the harm?

Zohar · April 16, 2014 12:57AM

Am I missing something? You sell a coin to a specific buyer. The buyer uses your image. Where is the damage to you? I see it more as a courtesy.
Does Heritage prevent a buyer using their images for their own purposes or resale? I don't believe so
I can understand it if you have an image and someone unrelated uses it to mislead other buyers.
The thread started with some implicit frustration that the buyer purchased coins and relisted at higher prices trying to flip them. That is also legit.

Greig · April 16, 2014 2:12AM

I very much appreciate everyone's thoughts here. I wasn't expecting as much interest in the subject!

A couple of responses:

First, I am not the least troubled by the buyer relisting these items for sale (and had tried to say so in my original listing). He owns them and has every right to do with them as he/she pleases. As of yesterday, he has not received any bids on any of them, so Bronco 2078's observation about his business plan may well be right. (Ebay's offering 50 free listing per month may mean he isn't out any cash if the items do not sell, so the net result to him may be cash neutral.) But it is entirely his call what to do with them.

Second, and perhaps more importantly, I do not view his using my photos as a serious problem, meriting anything more than a passing bit of irritation. Several commenters have observed that his using them is more a matter of courtesy than anything else and I agree fully. My initial post was intended to see if I was off base.

As always, I enjoy and value my fellow forum members' views!

bronco2078 · April 16, 2014 2:20AM

<< <i>Walter,
I hope you meant legally.

assume , you are rich rich.. and someone steals $ 100 from you in a devious way.
it will not hurt you.
would you still say : technically it is my 100 dollars , but whats the harm? >>

It's not the same thing . One the one hand you are out $100 on the other hand you aren't out anything.

desslok · April 16, 2014 3:15AM

Have you heard the phrase: "imitation is the sincerest form of flattery?"

Obviously the guy thought both your coins and your images are great. While what he did is illegal (copyright infringement), and perhaps not financially wise, I wouldn't bother with it if I were you. I mean yeah, you can complain, and eBay might pull his auctions, but what would you gain except irritating a potentially repeat customer?

On the other hand, I do understand how you feel. Someone once copied my entire website, images and texts, without as much as giving me simple credit or reference of any kind. We exchanged some unpleasant emails and he removed everything. I think the difference is that a website is something more permanent than an auction listing, and my website shows my entire collection, which I assembled coin by coin and which I still possess.

Edited for spelling

mrpotatoheadd · April 16, 2014 5:16AM

<< <i>Does Heritage prevent a buyer using their images for their own purposes or resale? >>

From the Heritage website:

License for Limited Uses

The Website and its contents, features, and services are available for use only if You have the legal capacity to form contracts under applicable law. You agree to all applicable laws and regulations regarding visitation to, and usage of, the Website. You may copy or print content only for Your personal use, and services are available only for Your personal use. One individual image may be used to accompany any article that You write without our written consent, if not used for commercial purposes, and if credited to Heritage Auction Galleries.

Looks like, at least for resale purposes, the answer is "No".

SYRACUSIAN · April 16, 2014 5:40AM

You should be very irritated Greig. I know I would be, and I also believe that you're inclined to give him a pass but don't. Follow Gene's advice without overthinking about it. JMHO.

YQQ · April 16, 2014 8:40AM

it is not a matter of being hurt or not in any way.
He stole your images. He is using them for profit. These are your property. and that is exactly , in simple words, what copyright is all about it.

Bronco: it is "technically" the same thing.

Zohar · April 16, 2014 8:44AM

YQQ - what value do these images have other than sentimental?

Unless these are used for proprietary purposes by their owner I personally do not see the harm as you retain a copy and let others benefit from the presentation of the coin you no longer own. I am probably missing something here and it is likely that its just me that does not have any "bond" with the images once the coins are no longer mine.

Sharing is caring as my daughter says

RareBronzeCollector · April 16, 2014 6:19PM

I'd be interested in the answer to this situation...

If you have a collection, or even a single coin, that you have imaged in some manner, that is sold subsequent
to your imaging them; who has the rights to the images???

Can you share or publish images of coins (or anything else), that you no longer own, so long as the images were made
while they were your property??
Or if someone else allows you to image their coin(s) or other item, that they later sell, can you still publish or share those images without permission from the new owner???

Walter · April 16, 2014 6:32PM

The photographer always has the rights to the images unless transferred.

YQQ · April 17, 2014 3:31PM

Walter, you are right.
Not just the rights, also ownership.
One does not need to own the subject in the images.
Zohar, lets assume you take a super picture of whatever out on s a stroll.
You post it here, just because you wish to share.
i download your super picture and , JUST because it is a great image, send it to a photo competition and ... win 1st prize with it... a merely 10K.
then the picture is published in an international publication......
NOW, is it my picture or is it yours?
Copyright laws have been designed to protect the maker, creators ownership.

Zohar · April 17, 2014 9:46PM

YQQ- you sold the coin to that person, its not me randomly taking a picture you post and using it. He paid you $ for the item. Again, its probably an issue of courtesy yet unless you specify in your listing that the images are copyrighted, it is assumed (to me) that its part of the sale. As I mentioned, I may be off in my thinking compared with others, as for me there is no downside if someone uses an image of a coin he bought from me.

YQQ · April 18, 2014 12:51AM

Zohar, lets agree to disagree on this one.
although, I fully know how you feel and think.
u said it yourself: sold the coin! not the images. perhaps I spent 3 hours trying to get the perfect shot with equipment worth 1000nds (irrelevant of the subject being photographed)
Maybe this will make you understand:
your wedding...you hired a photographer taking all your wedding pix.... YOU pay the photographer a basic fee for using hid experience and knowledge AND, on a per picture delivered to you. you ill not get the orignal unless you make these arrangements and pay for it.
However, he may not use any of his super shots for anything else, except to provide copies to YOU at a cost to you
For anything else he will need your written permission. he can not even put your pictures, however super they are, in any of his advertising or display without your permission.
Remember, all the buyer had to do is send one short email to the seller asking: can I use your pictures to sell the coins?
and there would not have been a problem!
True, sharing is caring.., your child is well raised.
But International laws precede when it comes to intellectual property and copyright.
If it was so simple..., everybody would be rich like Zohar or poor and broke like me.......lolololo.lo
W would also not need patent laws and Trademark laws... right?

H
PS: Oh, no, these were NOT my coins and I have no interest in this at all

Zohar · April 18, 2014 1:50AM

Fair enough. Enjoy the weekend!

RareBronzeCollector · April 18, 2014 3:24AM

The reason I asked my original question:

If you have a collection, or even a single coin, that you have imaged in some manner, that is sold subsequent to your imaging them; who has the rights to the images???

Can you share or publish images of coins (or anything else), that you no longer own, so long as the images were made while they were your property??
Or if someone else allows you to image their coin(s) or other item, that they later sell, can you still publish or share those images without permission from the new owner???

Was, that given the fact that I will at some time sell my collection (primarily for the reason that there is no one in my family that would know how to dispose of it to get the best return for it), I would still like to participate in the forums,
share information, and at times display the rare varieties that I own(ed) for informational, educational, comparative, and study purposes. I would also like to have the option to offer the images for use by various collectors or students
of a particular series for publication in whatever reference works they might be in the process of authoring.

As I would no longer own the coins (applicable to any item, of course), do I still have the right to use, publish, share, etc, the images of these items???
If put up for auction, I would assume the images taken by the auction house would NOT belong to me, but rather to the auction house, and I would have not right to use said images unless expressly granted to me in my agreement with them.

Thanks in advance for the answers and any further clarification I might need....

YQQ · April 18, 2014 12:46PM

Images you took are YOUR property! unless you sold the object and the images.
images someone else takes are their property
selling the object ( coin) of the images makes no difference.
To use someone else's images for whatever , needs permission.
just goggle: international copyright

So, should I be irritated at this?

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