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Chop marked peso or counter stamp?

Here's an interesting discussion piece. First, I really like the look of this coin. Pretty toning, UNC condition (apart from the damage). I collect chop marked coins from the west (ie. Americas and Europe, etc. not China, Japan etc.) and picked up this piece for very little cost. The impressions are larger than normal chop marks so I'd describe them more as Chinese counter marks than actual chop marks used in trade scenarios. Chop marked coins are known into the first decade of the 20th century in fact I have a few of these Mexican pesos with undoubtedly legitimate chop marks. I think the combination of the great condition of the coin and the size/overall look of the chops is giving me pause.

I'm not fluent in Chinese or able to read the characters, but I believe the symbol here is 大 or 'da' meaning big or large. The symbol itself is a common chop mark.

Anyone have any thoughts to add?

image

Comments

  • DDRDDR Posts: 1,560 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very interesting coin. My thoughts parallel yours. The host coin is very nice and as you said Chinese merchants chopmarked coins into the beginning of the 20th century. I have never seen that particular chopmark that big, though. In fact, I hardly ever see any chopmarks that big. (A bit ironic, I guess, that it means "big.")
  • EVillageProwlerEVillageProwler Posts: 5,859 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That symbol means "give to EVP so he can give to his better half's father".

    How does one get a hater to stop hating?

    I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com

  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Terrific looking coin- nothing to add as to the chop marks

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>That symbol means "give to EVP so he can give to his better half's father". >>



    LOL....thats great.
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623
    That is very cool, I would guess it was a test or counter punch too as it just doesn't look like a chop. That said it appears to be absolutely period and the skin is consistant inside the marks and out. Very cool coin to put away
  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I imagine that the punches used for chops were made for the merchant or banker by hand. Maybe some local iron worker ?
    Unless they were aquired from some sort of official source, it could be that by 1903 the size of the chopmark could be somewhat larger than earlier on...just a guess though.
    I'm thinking it is a chop .
  • jayPemjayPem Posts: 4,018 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Similar looking chop on this one here, although it's not as big I guess...

    image
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    JayPem that chop looks very similar in size, nice find! Seeing this other example causes me to lean towards chop mark because:

    1. The same symbol is present and they look very close in size
    2. There are other legit chops on this 8R
    3. The date is not far off

    Neat!

    By the way, does this chop mark remind anyone else of Gumby?

    image
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,719 ✭✭✭✭✭
    LOL

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • TwoKopeikiTwoKopeiki Posts: 9,528 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nice chopped Peso, Dan. There are many physical characteristics of the chopmarks - small/large chops, chops in relief, assay chops, letter chops, number chops, manchu chops (chops in manchu script, considered rare), bankers ink chops (in red, blue, purple ink), paper chops (like a "Happy Wedding" chop) and presentation chops (drawn in India ink and usualy are very elaborate, covering the entire coin). I remember owning a small book from the late 80's that spoke in-depth about different types and provided images.

  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Nice chopped Peso, Dan. There are many physical characteristics of the chopmarks - small/large chops, chops in relief, assay chops, letter chops, number chops, manchu chops (chops in manchu script, considered rare), bankers ink chops (in red, blue, purple ink), paper chops (like a "Happy Wedding" chop) and presentation chops (drawn in India ink and usualy are very elaborate, covering the entire coin). I remember owning a small book from the late 80's that spoke in-depth about different types and provided images. >>



    The Rose book is a pretty good start, totally ground breaking work at the time and hasn't been replicated in one source since. Fortunately for us, Colin Gullberg (current president of the Chop Mark Collectors Club) is putting together an update to the Rose book (more of a pamphlet really) that should be available within a year or so. I'm really excited to see it as there has been a lot of research performed over the past 50-60 years since the Rose book was first published. As evidence by threads like this one, there isn't a ton of knowledge easily available and the area in general is many times just guess work.

    Of your list above I've located a few nice examples with ink chops and even a wedding chop recently. I plan to post a picture soon, I think it's pretty cool. I'm really a sucker for these things, what with the travel and historical significance. We all wish we knew the stories our coins told, and with these we actually have some insight.
  • TiborTibor Posts: 3,197 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It almost looks like the 'chops' are raised
    instead of incuse. I see the resulting damage
    on the other side but.....

    Tibor
  • OriginalDanOriginalDan Posts: 3,713 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It almost looks like the 'chops' are raised
    instead of incuse. I see the resulting damage
    on the other side but.....

    Tibor >>



    2D pictures can play tricks on the mind. They stamps are definitely not raised, but I see what you mean when looking at the picture.
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