Italy (Venice): silver grosso of Antonio Venier, ca. 1382-1400

lordmarcovan · March 2, 2014 1:48PM

Italy (Venice): silver grosso of Antonio Venier, ca. 1382-1400

I thought this was a neat looking medieval and it has nice toning. Plus, it wasn't horrendously expensive, so I took the plunge.

PCGS XF40, cert #29851546. Ex-Coin Kingdom, LLC, 1/3/13 (via VCoins store). Purchased raw.

I will quote the original seller's description for the particulars:

<< Mint Venice, SCARCE Third type.
Obv: Doge and St. Mark standing facing, holding banner between them
Rev: Christ enthroned facing, raising hand in benediction, holding Gospels; star to left, ª to right
Weight 1.68gm.
Diameter 21 mm
Reference Biaggi 2854, Thomsen 1886 (classified as RARE TYPE!)
Grade VF. scarcer ruler. toned. >>

PCGS cert verification page (w/TrueView image link)
Older image (overexposed, but shows the purples in the toning a bit more)
Coins of the Medieval Italian states (medievalcoins.ancients.info)
Original seller page

Wikipedia links:
Antonio Venier
Doges of Venice
Venetian grosso
Republic of Venice (in the High Middle Ages)

When posted here, this coin was part of my "Eclectic Box of 20" collection.

STLNATS · March 3, 2014 2:15AM

Venetian coins omprise an interesting series that incorporate lots of history and provide an interesting blend of the ancient/byzantine world and the medieval/modern. I have a few of these, including one of Enrico Dandolo, the blind doge who orchastrated the redirection of the 4th crusade against the Byzantine Empire, but never could quite focus on collecting them seriously.

Congrats on another fine pickup!

NiceCurrency · March 3, 2014 7:22AM

cool

nice toning!

OldEastside · March 3, 2014 10:08AM

I was watching Ancient Aliens this morning and HEEEEhehehe this is proof that we've been visited before

Steve

Cool Piece BTW

Sapyx · March 3, 2014 11:29AM

I didn't think PCGS slabbed mediaevals.

lordmarcovan · March 3, 2014 2:25PM

<< I didn't think PCGS slabbed mediaevals.

>>

Yes, they do, though I'm a bit foggy on where the cutoff is. Guess I'll find out. Certainly they do medieval English. Anybody know more particulars?

Sapyx · March 3, 2014 8:41PM

I've just wasted a good hour trying to find somewhere on the PCGS website where they specify exactly what coins they will grade, and what they will not. Their rivals across the street have a nice, clear "coins we grade" page, both for their ancients division and their world coins division. I seem to recall PCGS used to do the same some years ago, but either my recollection is wrong, it has been removed or they've buried it somewhere where I can't find it.

The only guidance I can find is the actual pop reports of what they actually have graded in the past - and there is indeed one - just one - slabbed pre-1601 Venetian. Here 'tis. Was this a one-off for a special customer (like their rivals used to do), or do they simply choose not to advertise they now accept mediaevals, therefore very, very few of them have been submitted so far?

I've been going around telling everybody "No, PCGS doesn't slab mediaevals". But if that's not actually true, I'd like to know. Looking forward to the results of your submission.

lordmarcovan · March 3, 2014 8:53PM

I've seen medieval English in PCGS holders for some time now. Not a lot of them, mind you, but enough to know they should do those.

Stuff like the Venetian, though, as you said... who knows. I hope so.

I guess if they don't, I get a TrueView picture and hopefully a refund of the grading fee.

ajaan · March 3, 2014 10:18PM

I saw an ancient coin in a PCGS holder. I think it was on T.V.

lordmarcovan · March 4, 2014 7:28AM

<< I saw an ancient coin in a PCGS holder. I think it was on T.V. >>

I think there have been some promotional slabs, yes (maybe "Coins of the Bible" or something like that), but nothing actually graded, I don't think?

Nap · March 5, 2014 2:00AM

<< Venetian coins omprise an interesting series that incorporate lots of history and provide an interesting blend of the ancient/byzantine world and the medieval/modern. I have a few of these, including one of Enrico Dandolo, the blind doge who orchastrated the redirection of the 4th crusade against the Byzantine Empire, but never could quite focus on collecting them seriously.

Congrats on another fine pickup!

>>

I want to pick up one of Enrico Dandolo. Not so easy to find. He's quite the interesting figure in history, supposedly leading the Crusader assault on Constantinople personally at the age of 95+. The sack of Constantinople and the subsequent fall of Constantinople were defining moments in world history.

lordmarcovan · March 8, 2014 1:28PM

FWIW, here is a non-English medieval graded by PCGS. TrueViewed, too.

SmEagle1795 · March 8, 2014 2:34PM

<< 

<< I saw an ancient coin in a PCGS holder. I think it was on T.V. >>

I think there have been some promotional slabs, yes (maybe "Coins of the Bible" or something like that), but nothing actually graded, I don't think? >>

I've seen a few of these - just graded as Genuine but there are definitely some Bible-specific ancients in PCGS plastic. I've also heard the 1601 cutoff for medieval coins. I'll be curious as to what they do with this one, if not, I'm sure NGC would slab it.

lordmarcovan · October 3, 2014 7:03PM

Finally got 'round to updating this page, now that the coin is back from PCGS. So yes, they will indeed certify medievals other than English. You just don't see a lot of them. This coin is now a Pop 1.

I'm satisfied with the TrueView image, though it doesn't show the trace purples in the toning like the previous seller's picture (which is probably a bit overexposed).

Did you know there's an old singing cowboy ballad about medieval Italy? Yep. It's called "Git Along Little Doges".

Andres · October 3, 2014 9:19PM

Very nice Rob, congrats.
This Italian /Venetian coin struck around 1400 is definitly not mediëval, the renaissance started in Italy - in the province of Toscany around 1300.

the dark middle ages are roughly between the end of the Western Roman empire (400) untill the year 1000
period between 1000 and 1400 are called the late middle ages in the rest of Europe , at least overhere in the Netherlands.

hchcoin · October 4, 2014 12:40AM

Very nice

STLNATS · October 4, 2014 12:46AM

<< 
This Italian /Venetian coin struck around 1400 is definitly not mediëval, the renaissance started in Italy - in the province of Toscany around 1300.
>>

I tend not to get hung up on such designations since the edges tend to be varying shades of gray and usually not precise. This piece is certainly not renaissance since the type itself dates to much earlier and has strong byzantine elements. I think it can reasonably be classified into more than one category if one feels the need to do so altho I think it may be best throught of as a transitional type that was maintained well past its "age" since it was an important trade coin. Interesting series but I never pursued since there has always been other "shiny things" that aleays seemed more shiny.

Still think you've got a nifty coin there Rob...

Andres · October 4, 2014 1:52AM

STLNATS, Following your theory, all these dutch gold ducats are one and the same timeframe.
design is unchanged since 1586, the Netherlands at that time, were part of the Spanish Crown.
after a republic period , we became a Kingdom in 1814.
I think the time or year a coin is minted defines the period, not the design.
just my 2cents

Iosephus · October 4, 2014 5:45AM

Nice late medieval Italian coin!

I would definitely not call it Renaissance, which defines a cultural and not historical period. The fabric of this coin cannot at all be considered of Renaissance style. Unfortunately, I do not believe Venice ever actually made coins that could be properly classified as belonging to the Renaissance, as they seemed to be very much stuck in the medieval style.

STLNATS · October 4, 2014 9:32AM

<< STLNATS, Following your theory, all these dutch gold ducats are one and the same timeframe.
design is unchanged since 1586 >>

I think Joe made the distinction I was trying to make rather well. Altho the basic elements of the Dutch ducats' design are the same, it was updated rather dramatically over the years and, even without the date and with just a glance, no one would confuse the time period of the 1638 ducat with that of the 1974 issue. The grossi at the end of the series looks pretty much the same as those at the beginning. The anachronistic designs and style of a relative handful of relatively long-lived trade coins (the Florentine florin, Venetian grosso and ducat, the archiac Athenian owl, and probably a few others) was mantained specifically to reinforce confidence in the coins to help them pass inTh trade without too much examination.

lordmarcovan · October 4, 2014 9:42AM

Hey, Iosephus-

check this out.

Not a coin or medal, but I thought it was pretty neat.

Iosephus · October 4, 2014 11:30AM

<< Hey, Iosephus-

check this out.

Not a coin or medal, but I thought it was pretty neat. >>

That's very cool, thanks for pointing it out!

Iosephus · October 4, 2014 11:32AM

Duplicate.

TPRC · October 6, 2014 1:11AM

These two could have traveled together in the 14th century...Grosso 13th-14th century...Italy-Arezzo.

worldcoinguy · October 6, 2014 2:04AM

LordM - great piece. Same goes for the grosso from TPRC. I would love to see more of these posted around here.

lordmarcovan · October 6, 2014 7:39AM

TPRC- that one is fantastic! Incredibly well struck and centered on a nice flan, too. That to me is what a medieval coin is supposed to look like.

In fact, I like your coin more than the one I posted here, but I would wager it cost significantly more than mine, too.

Italy (Venice): silver grosso of Antonio Venier, ca. 1382-1400

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