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US Philippine collectors
Justhavingfun
Posts: 835 ✭
I was lucky in Manila 12 to 15 years ago, when I first started going there. Most American coin collectors didn't give a rat's butt about the coins in this fascinating US-PHilippine coin series, but I was welcomed with open arms by the Philippine numismatic community. I had lots of money, and spent it freely vacuuming up every good coin I could find.
The dealers felt they were were getting a good deal, because I was paying 50% to 100% over the going market rate for top-quality material; and I was sure I was getting a great deal because with my long time horizon, I knew those coins would come to be worth a helluva lot more than they were back then. So we were all winners.
I bought all the coins raw, and got zinged now and then (my fault); but most of the coins I bought slabbed nicely. Then with thousands of these coins, it was waaaay to much to keep at home, so most of them sat in one of my safety deposit boxes or another, for a decade.
Now I'm in my 70s, and my kids have zero interest in US rare coins (to say nothing of US-Philippines), so time to start selling.
But there's been a lack of a go-to auction house venue for the US Philippines; a place that appreciates them; wants them; and even caters to them. So I negotiated a deal with Teletrade, so they will start listing them correctly, in their own slots, not as part of foreign coinage, and in return I would start disgorging my huge collection of these coins through them.
The first of these auctions will be this coming Sunday, the 12th. I'd put a linky poo in but I don't know how. There will be more than 70 of my coins in the auction; all denominations. Lots of the scarce proofs (mintages 500 or less for 4 or the 5 years). And lots and lots of these amazingly elusive uncirculated business strikes.
I had trouble with my eyes about 5 years ago, and haven't been following the US-Philippine market that closely since then. So my reserves are probably all over the place: Many too high; many too low. The ones whose reserves are too low will be scarfed up; the ones I reserved too high will be back in a future Teletrade auction at a significantly lower reserve.
Some of my favorites for this auction ...
-- A scarce, almost rare 1916-s centavo in PCGS 64RB
-- The 1918-S Centavo,PCGS 65 Red Brown. So much attention is placed on the Large S variety, that the regular date is ignored, and it's scare in choice unc, and a real ball-buster in gem. Especially with color.
-- the 1885 Spanish Philippine silver 10 centavo is a common coin, but a condition rarity in PCGS 67
-- Two hard date 20 centavo proofs in gem (1906 and 1908)
-- The 10-S Peso in PCGS 62 is, with the 1904 proof peso in PCGS 64, the best crown-sized coins. 1910-S is a good date.
If you're interested in this series, happy hunting.
Best wishes from the Land of Smiles
Just Having Fun
The dealers felt they were were getting a good deal, because I was paying 50% to 100% over the going market rate for top-quality material; and I was sure I was getting a great deal because with my long time horizon, I knew those coins would come to be worth a helluva lot more than they were back then. So we were all winners.
I bought all the coins raw, and got zinged now and then (my fault); but most of the coins I bought slabbed nicely. Then with thousands of these coins, it was waaaay to much to keep at home, so most of them sat in one of my safety deposit boxes or another, for a decade.
Now I'm in my 70s, and my kids have zero interest in US rare coins (to say nothing of US-Philippines), so time to start selling.
But there's been a lack of a go-to auction house venue for the US Philippines; a place that appreciates them; wants them; and even caters to them. So I negotiated a deal with Teletrade, so they will start listing them correctly, in their own slots, not as part of foreign coinage, and in return I would start disgorging my huge collection of these coins through them.
The first of these auctions will be this coming Sunday, the 12th. I'd put a linky poo in but I don't know how. There will be more than 70 of my coins in the auction; all denominations. Lots of the scarce proofs (mintages 500 or less for 4 or the 5 years). And lots and lots of these amazingly elusive uncirculated business strikes.
I had trouble with my eyes about 5 years ago, and haven't been following the US-Philippine market that closely since then. So my reserves are probably all over the place: Many too high; many too low. The ones whose reserves are too low will be scarfed up; the ones I reserved too high will be back in a future Teletrade auction at a significantly lower reserve.
Some of my favorites for this auction ...
-- A scarce, almost rare 1916-s centavo in PCGS 64RB
-- The 1918-S Centavo,PCGS 65 Red Brown. So much attention is placed on the Large S variety, that the regular date is ignored, and it's scare in choice unc, and a real ball-buster in gem. Especially with color.
-- the 1885 Spanish Philippine silver 10 centavo is a common coin, but a condition rarity in PCGS 67
-- Two hard date 20 centavo proofs in gem (1906 and 1908)
-- The 10-S Peso in PCGS 62 is, with the 1904 proof peso in PCGS 64, the best crown-sized coins. 1910-S is a good date.
If you're interested in this series, happy hunting.
Best wishes from the Land of Smiles
Just Having Fun
Jefferson nickels, Standing Libs, and US-Philippines rock
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Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
8 Reales Madness Collection
Click Phil. Denominations in lower right of page
Good luck with the sale.
Sorry I wasn't clear. This Sunday, the coins up for grabs are ALL mine.
There will be one auction a week, each Sunday. Hopefully, on future Sundays, other US Philippine collectors will start offering their coins with me. But even if they don't, I have plenty of coins for a year of Sunday auctions. This should make Teletrade a comfortable venue for fellow USPI fanatics to buy and sell.
Dear Two Kopeiki:
My "kiddie poos" aren't interested in coins, but they are wonderful people who bring passion to their own lives; my daughter, the ballerina; my son, to the business world. Thanks for the good wishes.
And thank you, too, MacCrimmon for the link and the well wishes.
Also, the 1905-S Peso you have in the auction seems to be a straight serif variety but it's not identified as such in the auction or on the holder.
Any plans to let a 1906-S peso go? maybe in the VF-EF range....
Also a big fan of liberty seated coins.
And yes, Palawan is a wonderful vacation spot. I used to go there but now it's my son's turn.
And nice to meet you, Hintonator. That 1905-S is straight serif; the slightly scarcer variety, even though not expressed on the slab. I have several 06-S pesos in slightly worn condition. I just have to find them. I have my some back in America trying to clear out some of my safety deposit boxes, where nothing is safe, and bringing them to Asia where they are. I also have a few extra 1918-S mules in pretty nice condition, like AU 58, that I'll be putting up for sale. Good stuff.
From the Land of Smiles
Just Having Fun
Thanks,
Joseph
Link
Also a big fan of liberty seated coins.
Hey, where's the good stuff!?!
Thanks for the link.
You can bet I'll be bidding.
Sight unseen? No problem with JHF!
I did think that most of the coins were reasonably graded and a fair number of undergrades (because back then the PCGS graders didn't know US-PHilippine coins and couldn't tell weak strike from especially on Lady Liberty's head and the Eagle's chest. But, there were also some coins I thought were overgraded; even with 10 years of grading inflation.
And hello, again, Mr. Hintonator. That was a good article. But screw the denticles. The mule has the small date, exactly the opposite of what you'd expect.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun ...
In the land of smiles
http://stacksbowers.com/Auctions/AuctionLot.aspx?LotID=363475
It will be in a PCGS holder soon. I might have overpaid a little, but it's not everyday you find a 1906-S peso in that grade range
Justhavingfun: I agree that the small date and the broader shield are easy pickup points on the mule, I also mentioned that in what I wrote. That said, for the novice, someone who isn't use to seeing the coins or is unsure, the denticles are an easy diagnostic. If used, it would be impossible to confuse the two.
Also a big fan of liberty seated coins.
Tomorrow's the big day ... the first auction. I haven't seen any Teletrade marketing on the US Philippine series, so I'm curious to see how how much sells.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
Also a big fan of liberty seated coins.
<< <i>I also find it very curious that US collectors into Walkers or Morgans or Standing Liberty quarters don't jump all over the late 1800 - 1920 Philippine coinages. >>
They need to get into the 7070.
Good luck on your auctions and thanks for the interesting story!
That was one beautiful 1906-S peso. I usually don't place much value on an ICG holder, but I think this baby will cross.
$5,288 is, to me, an amazing price for an EF. I remember picking up -- many, many years ago -- two 06-S pesos, that later slabbed at PCGS for Au 52 and 58. I paid $1,200 and $1,800 respectively for them; and now, if I can only find them again, I'm going to be a very happy camper.
One small favor: I'd be appreciative if f you would forward the Teletrade e-mail to me.
Just having fun ...
in the Land of Smiles
As far as the 1906-S Peso goes, The book value for an "EF" is only $3,250 and $8,000 for an AU. On top of the "book value" being wrong even for a guide, I thought the coin was a solid 45 and Stacks is sending it in to PCGS for me. To some I might have overpaid a little, but I was only one bid away from another collector, and it's not like an EF 1906-S comes around too often...
Also a big fan of liberty seated coins.
<< <i>Dear Hintonator:
That was one beautiful 1906-S peso. I usually don't place much value on an ICG holder, but I think this baby will cross.
$5,288 is, to me, an amazing price for an EF. I remember picking up -- many, many years ago -- two 06-S pesos, that later slabbed at PCGS for Au 52 and 58. I paid $1,200 and $1,800 respectively for them; and now, if I can only find them again, I'm going to be a very happy camper.
One small favor: I'd be appreciative if f you would forward the Teletrade e-mail to me.
Just having fun ...
in the Land of Smiles >>
I don't think this will crossed. It looks like an altered 6. If you have a chance to look closely of the photo provided by the auctioner and click on the high resolution you'll see the 1 on the date is not straight.
Welcome and thanks for the crit of the coin.
I did check the "1" before commenting that the 1906-S peso was a nice coin. I thought it was real then and then checked it out again, right now. At one time I had a collection of bogus 06-S coins. I can only put my hands on one of them any more, and Hintonator's coin doesn't fit the mold. The flat spot on the top is the tell tale.
There was an ace jeweler in Tacloban who specialized in bog 1906'S pesos (and 1903-S 50 centavo's). When he shaved the serif to straighten it out, he'd get a point it the top. So my money still rides on this being the real thing.
It may not cross, but I'll bet it's the real kahuna.
By the way, the jeweler aged, got palsy, and the counterfeits dried up. Or so I'm told by my pals in the Philippines.
from the Land of Smiles, where ...
I'm just having fun
I wrote a brief article about them here:
The esoteric 1906-S Peso
Also, Ray Czahor wrote a pamphlet about the 1906-S Peso titled: “THE PHILIPPINE 1906S PESO, DIE CHARACTERISTICS: GENUINE AND FAKE”
My coin matches the coin on page 14.
Justhavingfun,
You coins are bringing some good prices so far. The 1918-S is going for crazy money!
Also a big fan of liberty seated coins.
Turning to the 1918-S centavo in 65 red brown ... I mentioned earlier that the small S was a much harder coin than most people realized because it was overshadowed by the large S, and that it was extremely difficult in gem, and even more difficult in gem with some color. Well, a friend checked the 18-S against my registry set, and he found that the coin WAS apparently my registry-set coin. So I moved my reserve up to make sure it didn't sell. I think I have two 18-S's in MS 65 Red Brown, PCGS, and one in 64 Red.
I'll have to check all three coins before I put one of them back up for sale.
Speaking of the sale, I haven't been following it, but the same friend who spotted the 18-S centavo, said that a lot of schtuff was moving. Yippee.
I'll have a whole new selection next week. Then two weeks from now, the unsold coins from this auction will go back up for sale again, at a significantly reduced reserve, plus another bunch of newbies, to replace the coins that sold.
Best wishes from the Land of Smiles
Just Having Fun
I bid on 70 lots. Unless I misinterpreted Teletrade's lingo, they are all "unsold" ... Not sure if I should be happy or sad?
I'm happy the coins are still on the market, so I can bid again (and higher, I suppose)
but sad for JustHavingFun because unsold lots are not the goal of an auction.
Wish me better luck next week!!!!!!!
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
I would have been a bigger participate, but with the recent purchase of the 1906-S peso and coins I am already committed to in other auctions, I had to sit most of this one out.
Justhavingfun, I am glad you mentioned that you raised the reserve on the 1918-S, I was racking my brain trying to figure out why it was so high! lol...
Also a big fan of liberty seated coins.
Just got back a preliminary report on this past Sunday's Teletrade auction of the US-Philippines, and it was a home run.
29 of the 70+ lots sold, about 40%.
The Pesos were very popular. Those are the big, crown-sized silver coins with the beautiful Lady Liberty gracing the obverse, and a nicely done American Eagle on the reverse, and most of them sold for good money.
-- The low mintage 1904 Peso in MS64 PCGS went out hammered at $700. .
-- the 1905-S, type two, in AU 50 was hammered at $160; disappointing for me, but a bargain for somebody.
-- and 1910-S peso in MS 62, PCGS, an under-appreciated scarce date, hammered at $400.
The Proofs were also popular. The scarce date 1908 Peso (Mintage 500), in proof 64 PCGS went for $925. the 1906 1/2 centavo proof 65 RB went for $475. This is another mintage 500 coin, and the Philippine coppers are scarce with with color, so this was a good coin at a good price. And the 1906 20 centavoe in Proof 65 hammered at $550.
The best deal buy from the auction was, in my opinion, the 1939-M Centavo, MS65 RED, PCGS. The Philippine coppers are very hard to find in cherry red. This coin was pop5 with only one or two better, and it sold for $160. A great collector coin on the cheap.
Talking cheap, my 1944 50 centavo in MS 62, NGC, went for $36, not that much over bullion. And my 1945-S 50 centavo in MS 64, PCGS, went for $55.
Overall, my pricing wasn't as far off as I feared. I mean to have a US-Philippine auction every Sunday, and left slews of coins with a friend in the US. But my friend is meeting my son in Hong Kong this week, and me next week for the Hong Kong auction, so he can't put the coins up. So we'll have to skip this weekend and next weekend, the remaining coins from last Sunday's auction will go up again at reduced reserves. After that, we'll have new batches of coins for each auction until my hoard is sold off.
One factor holding this series back has been the extremely difficulty in finding good business strikes in choice or gem. It's discouraging to be a collector and try to find coins that aren't there. So I'm hoping these auctions will popularize the series, by making these rarities more accessible. The prices at this auction were strong for the US-Philippines, but still, these coins are so undervalued ... can you imagine what a US penny in MS65 RED, PCGS, pop 5/2 would go for? It ain't $160, like my beautiful 39-M centavo, but more like you add a zero and multiply by two.
Warm regards from the Land of Smiles, where I'm ...
Just Having Fun
<<"The best deal buy from the auction was, in my opinion, the 1939-M Centavo, MS65 RED, PCGS. The Philippine coppers are very hard to find in cherry red. This coin was pop5 with only one or two better, and it sold for $160. A great collector coin on the cheap.">>
Thanks Justhaving fun. I won the above coin and am very pleased, it's really nice, and tough coin in Gem grade Red.
It is going into a good home in my collection. Based on your invite I have talked to Teletrade about consigning some of my slabbed Philippine coins too, as I am always upgrading.
Maybe not all as nice as yours , but there will be few good ones, . I hope they allow me to be in with you in your section.
Thanks for giving the rest of us USPI collectors an opportunity to see a large grouping of nice coins to choose from.
Krueger
Congrats on the sales! Sorry for the confusion! It may be a long time before I get another chance to bid on a proof 1908 Peso but at least now I know I want one
Amat Colligendo Focum
Top 10 • FOR SALE
You have sharp eyes; congrats.
It was a mistake on my part. I have a lot of US Philippine coins and sometimes a coin slips from group A to group B. That's what happened on this occasion: The coin was accidentally moved from my do-not-sells to my okay-to-sells.
It happened a few years too. I mistakenly put a top centavo up for sale, and when I discovered the error, it was too late. The new owner had the courtesy to let me buy it back, but the cost was significantly higher. I don't blame him for his vigorish; he was very kind to let me buy it back in the first place.
This time however, I spotted the error before the sale was final on Teletrade and swooped in with a protective bid. If I remember correctly, I won the auction for a delightfully minor $900 (I was prepared to go lot higher). The cost of the error was the price of my buyers fee, etc., which was minor, and I was happy to get this pop-top piece back home, snug in the right safety deposit box.
Best wishes,
Just having fun, and lots of it
Good coin. Because of the fame of the large S, the small S is one of the most unappreciated date in the series. Pop 5/0, if I remember correctly.
Best wishes from Hong Kong where ...
I'm just having fun
I also won a nice 1904 Peso in an ANACS MS63 holder that upgraded into an PCGS MS64 holder!
Also a big fan of liberty seated coins.
I also see that the very first PCGS-PR68 Peso (1906) for the entire proof Peso series was just slabbed by PCGS, as well as a pop 1/0 1908 PCGS-PR67+ Peso! Those must also be (2) amazing coins.
Wondercoin
When I read your post, I went back and looked again at the coin. It's a beaut. Keep it up. You're on the way already.
Dear Mr. Wondercoin:
I have at least two other Proof 68 pesos -- of the more common 1903 persuasion, but still gorgeous coins and conditional rarities. I thought I had an 08 proof, and my records show one. That would make it a one-year type coin, because of its reduced size. But when my son cleared out that Bank's safety deposit boxes, it wasn't there. So I'm not sure what happened.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun in Hong Kong,
And lots of it
1903 Peso PR67 7 0
1904 Peso PR66 8 4
1905 Peso PR67 4 0
1906 Peso PR67 10 1
1908 Peso PR67 5 1
So, as you see, there are no PCGS-PR68 1903 Pesos and you have one of the pop 7/0 in PCGS-PR67 in your set.
Likewise, you will see the (1) coin graded higher than a PR67 for the 1906, which I believe is a freshly graded PCGS-PR68.
Likewise, you will see the (1) coin graded higher than a PR67 for the 1908, which I believe is a freshly graded PCGS-PR67+
If I am correct, that 1906 Peso in PCGS-PR68 would be the first ever PCGS-PR68 Peso (perhaps you have a 1903 PR68 graded by another service)? Unless one of the (4) coins graded higher than your 1904 Peso in PR66 is a PR68? Otherwise, it appears the 1906 in PCGS-PR68 is pop 1/0 for type in a PCGS holder?
Wondercoin
P.S. Auction #3343 on September 9th at Teletrade (just opened) now shows these coins (correctly) as: "U.S. Philippines Half Centavo", etc. for each different denomination in the auction. Good job Teletrade!
P.S.S I just confirmed over on Coinfacts that one of the 1904 Pesos is graded PCGS-PR67+ with no PR68 coins .... so it now appears the freshly graded 1906 Peso in PCGS-PR68 is POP 1/0 for the Type!
The 1903s in Proof 68 are very old slabs and back then I suspect PCGS population reports were inaccurate to non-existent for "minor" series like the US Philippines. If I have time on Monday, I'll check out my local safety deposit box where the Pr 68s should be, if they be.
the 1908 proof 68 may be an N holder. That was one of my first supergem proofs. 12 or 15 years ago, I did buy a super gem (every coin holdered for Pr 66 or better) containing a peso in 68. Cost something like $13,000 which was far and away the record for a US PI proof set at that time. In my mind's eye, it was in a PCGS slab, but that's less definite than it being a Proof 68.
-----
Changing subjects, it's exciting news that Teletrade is no longer listing the coins as Philippines half centavos (which is incorrect) but rather correctly as US Philippine half centavos, etc.
Along the same vein, it will be interesting for me to see how they list the NGS-slabbed modern patterns I'm starting to put into the Teletrade auctions. If I remember correctly, they were from the mid-1960s, so they should be listed as Philippines, not US-Philippines.
I'm also listing them on the cheap. If I remember correctly, I bought over a 100 assorted of these patterns raw, most for $80 but a few up to $150. Then I paid $15 a coin to NGC to have them slabbed. That was at least a decade ago and back then PCGS wasn't interested (or capable) in esoteric foreign coins.
So I'm into these coins for over a $100 each (on average). And have no idea whether today, they're worth $50, $500, or $5,000. I've put the first few up with a deliberately low-ball reserve of $50 to get a quick feel of where the market is at. If they don't go at a decent price, I'll just stop selling them and bring the coins out to Manila, where at least one friendly numismatist wants to catalog them. Oh, it's interesting collection full of double dies, muled reverses, and other interesting variations. Once there's a catalog, they will be worth a lot more.
And in any case, the market for the Philippine patterns may be among Philippine numismatists, not US collectors, and Teletrade still doesn't let Philippine collectors bid.
-----
Gotta run now. A friend is in the hospital and the whole crew is going over on the ferry to visit her.
Warm regards,
Just Having Fun
I was appalled, and made it a point to meet with one of the powers-that-be from Teletrade. I made three simple points, (1) How could Teletrade possibly hope to make itself the go-to site for Philippine coins, when they didn't let Filipino's buy from them?
(2) World coins were growing far faster in dollar volume than US coins, so if Teletrade continued to cut out foreign bidders, they'd cut themselves off from the growth segment of the coin business
(3) Their sister auction house Stacks/Bowers, which is my preferred auction house for my big ticket items like my Standing Liberty Quarter collection, accepted foreign bidders. And if Stacks could do it for $10,000 and $100,000 coins, surely Teletrade could make it work for $1,000 and $2,000 coins.
The person with whom I was meeting was intelligent, thoughtful, and receptive. Took no dispute with anything I said. I left the meeting with a clear sense that he was determined to fix this policy, and allow foreign bidders, like my young fellow coin collector from the Philippines. When, I don't know, but I'll try to keep track of it.
Second, my second major auction of US-PIs takes place tomorrow, Sunday, the 9th. Some highlights will be
(a) 1904 10 centavo in Proof 66 PCGS. This is a scarce date (mintage 1,000), and very hard in super-gem
(b) 1908 10 centavo in Proof 65 PCGS. Scarcer than the 04 (mintage 500), and a one-year type-coin because of its reduced size.
(c) Two Wilson silver dollars, 1920. I've never been able to nail down the mintage figures for these beauts, but as a collector I know they are murder to get in unc., and almost impossible in unc, slabbed by PCGS. Both coins are MS62s, one slabbed by PCGS and the other by ANACS
(d) I also have what's probably the finest collection of Philippine pattern coins from the '60s and '70s: hundreds of them; all sizes and shapes. I wish I had time to catalog them; they're a fascinating set, but it's simply not in the cards. Too my eye-strain for my old, tired eyes. So I'm just going to sell them off and let someone else enjoy them. The first two are on sale Sunday, beautiful, choice red bronzes, slabbed by NGC, and priced (I believe) to sell.
(e) US-Philippine collectors usually like the Spanish Phlippine coins that preceeded the US-Philippines, and I have a scarce 1829 Quattro in Fine 15. The Quattros, almost two centuries old in a hot, moist, humid climate normally come very bad. This is one of the best Quattros of any date that I've seen.
As before, I've been out of touch with the markets for these coins for some time and my reserves will be all over the place; some way high, some way low. But they've been selling nicely, and my children, who will get the proceeds of these sales, will be happy.
Next week, I'll have even more of the US-Philppines up for sale in an all new consignment.
Good luck, from Hong Kong, where I'm
Just Having Fun
how are you? its been a while i havent heard anything about you. hope your doing fine espcially your health.
jepoy