All you ever wanted to know about Chinese counterfeits but were afraid to ask

SYRACUSIAN · February 29, 2008 12:43AM

Photos kindly offered by the greekcoins forum.gr.

coinpictures · February 29, 2008 12:55AM

It's a scary world we live in...

JRC · February 29, 2008 1:06AM

Wow. Thank you Dimitri
Jim.

direwolf1972 · February 29, 2008 1:22AM

PBRat · February 29, 2008 1:32AM

Yikes!

Preussen · February 29, 2008 1:44AM

That is really scary. -Preussen

STONE · February 29, 2008 2:01AM

Unbelievable!!!

Arizonadesertrat · February 29, 2008 2:14AM

Wow. And forum posters still bid on raw Trade dollars, etc. posted on ebay. If these pictures don't scare the bejeesus out of ebay bidders, nothing will.

Hussulo · February 29, 2008 2:19AM

Gazza · February 29, 2008 2:37AM

<< Wow. And forum posters still bid on raw Trade dollars, etc. posted on ebay. If these pictures don't scare the bejeesus out of ebay bidders, nothing will. >>

Would you prefer to pay a premium for a slabbed one then? If they are that good can anyone tell the difference anymore

ElKevvo · February 29, 2008 2:55AM

I like the silk covered boxes they put them in...adds a nice touch to the operation.

K

charley · February 29, 2008 3:10AM

SYRACUSIAN, Respectfully, I have always enjoyed your Posts on this Forum, as I have all other Posts. There is always the one Post, that will have an impact that is far reaching and an outstanding service to the collecting community, that is not immediately recognized. An Encyclopedia has been typed on the various Forum Boards concerning this subject. It tends to be interesting reading for a day, worth some gossip at the work place the next day during a coffee break and then flutters to the dark recesses of awareness. There is a "mental resistance" to the subject, I think, because it may require us to look in our own "closets" and discover that which we choose to ignore may be there- a counterfeit. It is comfortable to have the subject touched on from time to time , and move quickly thru the period,with a satisfying thought of " thank goodness it didn't happen to me". This is no longer possible, thanks to your Post.. The information contained within the pictures is a universal language understood immediately by all,without debate or definition of the written word or phrase. I elect your Post to the Category I stated above..an outstanding service to the collecting community. Thank You for removing the "mental resistance". Respectfully and Sincerely, John Curlis

harvey85422458 · February 29, 2008 3:10AM

Whats the one with the arrow pointing to it??

BECOKA · February 29, 2008 3:17AM

Unbelievable.

dan8402 · February 29, 2008 3:23AM

<< Whats the one with the arrow pointing to it?? >>

I think the first arrow is pointing to a Greek coin die since it was originally posted to a Greek coin forum. The second picture with the arrow shows the person making the counterfeits.

cullenbryant · February 29, 2008 3:28AM

thanks for sharing the information.

Bear · February 29, 2008 3:49AM

Gosh, I though those pictures

were of the USA MINT.

newsman · February 29, 2008 3:52AM

Now I'm really afraid to ask.

TomB · February 29, 2008 4:29AM

I would like to know much more.

ebaytrader · February 29, 2008 4:50AM

sumnom · February 29, 2008 4:55AM

Those are fascinating pictures! Thank you for posting them. I have long been curious about what these operations might look like. I see here they are not casting coins but actually milling them. I wonder how they made the dies.

sumnom · February 29, 2008 4:57AM

I wonder these people get paid and what sort of profit these operations make.

ccrdragon · February 29, 2008 5:01AM

thanks for pointing out that 'the emperor has no clothes'....

SYRACUSIAN · February 29, 2008 5:19AM

<< I wonder these people get paid and what sort of profit these operations make. >>

The working conditions look depressing. You don't expect these people to have their dental insurance covered by the employer....

ASUtodd · February 29, 2008 5:23AM

ANyone ever thought about sending these pics to Fleabay??
Todd

SYRACUSIAN · February 29, 2008 6:00AM

Thank you all, I'm glad to be able to share them. The pictures are not widely circulating on the internet, they were discovered by the new board of direction of the Athens Numismatic Club who has all the credit for finding them ,after several complaints by the members who fell victims to these copies.

I assume that the dies were made using real examples of the coins, and by reversing the minting process. Hence the ability to tell a fake, since all the copies made from a certain die will show the problems of the coin that was used to make the die. These copies have an unnatural new look, but with the same wear as the original coin.

ajaan · February 29, 2008 6:28AM

Very interesting.

Meiji · February 29, 2008 6:28AM

Crap. If they are making these with dies, how are we to tell them apart from the originals?

The problem is that I usually look for that "Cast" look to tell a fake.

If the weight is correct, made out of the correct 90% silver content, the dies are pretty accurate, and it has been artificially aged to look real... we're in trouble.

ajaan · February 29, 2008 6:39AM

In trouble only if the dies are 100% correct.

pendragon1998 · February 29, 2008 8:40AM

Geeze - were those gold sovereign dies or crowns?

MacCrimmon · February 29, 2008 10:30AM

<< In trouble only if the dies are 100% correct. >>

The dies look like they were hubbed from worn, original coins. Pistricci's horse looks a tad flat. Anyone want to bet the edge devices are either missing or crude at the very least?

And one last observation for now; I believe the Chinese must pirate and copy everything, and the PRC government condones every last bit of it.

Do we know who took those original pictures?

TrustNo1 · February 29, 2008 10:46AM

unreal...cant they go back to making cheap and affordable toxic sneakers?

NumisOxide · February 29, 2008 11:19AM

Something that needed to be seen. Thanks.

Doogy · February 29, 2008 12:10PM

<< Geeze - were those gold sovereign dies or crowns? >>

Crowns. I bought a fake Chinese Crown from a British seller a year or so ago. It was hard to tell from the real thing, except for the extra metal that flowed into the coin edge rims. scary, but only if they are convincing fakes.

mrpotatoheadd · February 29, 2008 12:21PM

<< ANyone ever thought about sending these pics to Fleabay?? >>

What could eBay do about it?

Udo · February 29, 2008 5:21PM

Well, I'm speechless

Rickc300 · February 29, 2008 6:00PM

I am now afraid of buying any coin on eBay without a pedigree unless it is valued under $10 so it is not affordable to sell by a fly by night seller selling fakes...

Will anyone do anything? I don't think so. Definitly not some auction site like eBay that is making big $$$ on every sale or theft that it condones, ignores or covers up in its marketing ploys...

Just my 2 cents worth...

Rick

sumnom · February 29, 2008 7:02PM

This has been going on well before the advent of ebay. In fact, this really isn't about ebay at all. This little factory makes fakes to sell to the eager uninitiated. 'Twas ever thus!

Automan · February 29, 2008 7:33PM

I was in Beijing about 18 months ago and saw these coins EVERYWHERE! And not just crown-sized coins, either. All sizes and denominations, both Western (although I saw only copies of silver coins) and Chinese (both cash coins, earlier forms of Chinese money such as knife coins, and later Chinese silve). As a present for someone interested in coins, I bought about 40-50 copies of Chinese dollar coins. I paid around 15-20 cents each after some haggling and demonstrating unequivocally that I knew the coins to be fake (starting price was a few dollars each). Generally, these coins would not really fool anyone with more than a passing knowledge of the types involved, although one or two were not too bad as copies. The price I paid indicates a manufacturing cost of maybe 2-10 cents per coin, though. Imagine what these people could accomplish if they could manufacture coins for a cost of 1-2 dollars each, and maybe even spend a few additional dollars to make them in silver...

When transferring flights on my way home, I was stopped at the security checkpoint at Helsinki airport. The security guy asked me to open my carry-on so the "weird" lumps of metal that had show up on the X-ray could be inspected. Judging from his complete lack of surprise and interest, it was clearly not the first time he saw someone bringing in fake coins in quantity from China.

Automan

shirohniichan · February 29, 2008 11:43PM

I'm going to have to save a link to this thread. Every time someone asks if the 1878-CC trade dollar on eBay with a starting bid of 99 centts is real, I'll post the link.

BobSav · March 2, 2008 10:56AM

Did they allow you to keep the fakes or were they confiscated?

Bob

Doogy · March 25, 2008 2:10PM

bump!

Goldbully · March 25, 2008 2:22PM

<<

Photos kindly offered by the greekcoins forum.gr. >>

Holy Carp!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DJCoinz · March 25, 2008 2:23PM

Cripes! That is really scary...

ARCO · March 25, 2008 2:27PM

Note to self; never buy a raw draped bust dollar...EVER!

What are the large sovereign looking dies?

lcoopie · March 25, 2008 2:37PM

look at the writing on the third picture, as far as its likely location i mean
maybe someone can translate

maybe it says
stupid americans??

Doogy · March 25, 2008 3:50PM

<< Note to self; never buy a raw draped bust dollar...EVER!

What are the large sovereign looking dies? >>

1822 George IV Crown

cucamongacoin · March 26, 2008 12:52AM

A co worker here in So Cal brought some counterfeits for me to look at. He had eight different, I believe, and had paid $20 for all of them. They were light weight, pewter grey in color, very similar to circ silver, and at a glance were of decent quality, obviously struck from dies and not cast.

jdillane · March 26, 2008 12:59AM

Thanks for sharing. This really comes as no surprise given what we have seen on the bay of late, but as they say about a picture being worth a 1000 words...

ozzysdad47 · March 26, 2008 6:36AM

Syracusian, I'd like to thank you very much for this post...... I'd also like to say that this is unbelieveable, But.... Talk bout a picture being worth a thousand word's....... And now with alot of these fake's showing up in Bogus Slab's. People are going to have to really keep on their toe's when buying on eBay.... I have never bought any of these on there, But i do have many that i purchased from an individual locally. This is one very imformative post. I think you deserve a big round of applause from everyone.

I also hope that you may of saved many folk's alot of money. I remember one seller in particular as will many on this forum that used to sell alot of these, I'm not sure what she goe's by now. But her name was Pamela Donnelly.

As many may recall, She was booted from ebay so many time's, And alway's came back under another seller's name. I wonder if she is still on eBay? Talk about a ripoff artist. JMHO, That i am sure is the same as many other's.

Way to go, Your post are alway's informative,

Thank's Again, ozzysdad47

wybrit · March 26, 2008 7:52AM

Unbelievable, yet at the same time, not the least bit surprising. Unfortunately, the technology to do this type of "work" will only get better, to the point where it would seriously damage the hobby.

In the meantime, the best thing we can do is not to sell coins to that country. If they have good examples of original pieces, they will turn up later in droves.

All you ever wanted to know about Chinese counterfeits but were afraid to ask

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