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Baleyville doing well, the rest, well you know
RedTiger
Posts: 5,608 ✭
No wonder there is so much anger in the populace
from
the NY Times link
>>
... it’s not merely an issue of the rich getting richer. The typical American household has been getting poorer, too.
The inflation-adjusted net worth for the typical household was $87,992 in 2003. Ten years later, it was only $56,335, or a 36 percent decline ...
... well-do-do slice of the population, household net worth increased 14 percent over the same 10 years ...
>>
What does this have to do with metals? When policies like this continue, revolution or civil war is a common historical outcome. It is not just a U.S. thing, I am guessing similar in most of the first-world, as food, fuel, rent all increase, while incomes remain stagnant to down for most of the middle class. When a Fed banker gets a question about spiraling food costs, and their answer is that Ipads are cheaper so inflation is under control, the disconnect is almost beyond belief. Let them eat Ipads may be the rallying cry for the next uprising.
Yes, there is a small group of the fortunate that are doing well, but the group gets smaller by the year. While the vast middle is getting pummeled, not only going no-where economically, but sliding backwards at a terrifying rate.
from
the NY Times link
>>
... it’s not merely an issue of the rich getting richer. The typical American household has been getting poorer, too.
The inflation-adjusted net worth for the typical household was $87,992 in 2003. Ten years later, it was only $56,335, or a 36 percent decline ...
... well-do-do slice of the population, household net worth increased 14 percent over the same 10 years ...
>>
What does this have to do with metals? When policies like this continue, revolution or civil war is a common historical outcome. It is not just a U.S. thing, I am guessing similar in most of the first-world, as food, fuel, rent all increase, while incomes remain stagnant to down for most of the middle class. When a Fed banker gets a question about spiraling food costs, and their answer is that Ipads are cheaper so inflation is under control, the disconnect is almost beyond belief. Let them eat Ipads may be the rallying cry for the next uprising.
Yes, there is a small group of the fortunate that are doing well, but the group gets smaller by the year. While the vast middle is getting pummeled, not only going no-where economically, but sliding backwards at a terrifying rate.
0
Comments
When this current business cycle ends (and along with it the 5-6 yr stock market boom) it's going to get ugly in a hurry......especially with ALL household incomes. And like they did in 2006-2008, those
$1.14 Quad in otc derivatives will pop their heads up once again and say "yup, we're still here and raring to perform." 2009-2015 is the economic/business cycle dead cat bounce phase.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
<< <i>The irony of a board full of wealthy gold hoarders bemoaning how bad "most people" have it in modern day America continues to amuse resident of Baleyville, who are neither wealthy nor gold hoarders generally, just folks going about their business and not worrying overmuch what "they" and THEM are doing to us, certainly not all day long every day, as those who must continually refresh the metals prices "all day" or surely go stark raving mad. Hang in there America. >>
Sounds like the people living in Baleyville are clueless sheepies.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
sounds like haters be blaming everybody both richer and poorer than themselves, and calling names and pointing fingers instead of getting their minds and hands busy out in the real world
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>Thanks for the shout out RedTiger. Hoping to learn something today.. >>
I was hoping for another Orwellian spin flip about how a 30% lower net worth is mostly a good thing, about how we must learn to love Big Brother and all that he takes and gives us. Or perhaps back to Dickens with a Baley quote about about how most Americans are overpaid, that most are coasting, so most surely deserve a wage cut and a lower net worth. If Mr. Baley were in charge the cuts would be deeper. All of this of course is for the public good, aka as the good of Baleyville and the cronies that reside there. After all the Baley's of the world deserve yet another 14% increase for they are the most deserving of all Americans. The rest, well, they are either ignorant, lazy or coasting and deserve lower wages and a lower net worth. Ay, what have yea learned Mr. Baley?
<< <i>Renville's a happy place too. Just sunshine and pineapples. It's like a whole other country.
Country? Try continent. I hear Hawaii is in Asia.
<< <i>Yes, there is a small group of the fortunate that are doing well, but the group gets smaller by the year. While the vast middle is getting pummeled, not only going no-where economically, but sliding backwards at a terrifying rate. >>
Much of this is due to the reallocation of wealth from the middle class worker to the medical provider elite.
Nearly 20% of the economy is medical care and allied services. The working stiff in the middle not only has to cover his share, but that of those that are elderly, young, poor and chronically ill.
Many believe that this is worth the decimation of the assets of the less than well off.
Some do not.
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<< <i>Renville's a happy place too. Just sunshine and pineapples. It's like a whole other country.
Country? Try continent. I hear Hawaii is in Asia. >>
Hehe. I pulled the video a few months back just to see if he was joking because that is kinda the joke here. He looked dead serious.
Population: Haoles are 26%, Asian are 37%, Hispanic are 10% and native Hawaiian...only 10%. The rest are a mix.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Like the Libor manipulation by the major banks. Reap $Billions and fined a fraction of that.
Box of 20
Heck two cars are worth $40K. Throw in some furniture, jewelry, lawn equipment, and TV's and that gets you to $56K. If $56K is "middle class", what is lower class? $2K?
<< <i>How can anyone with a net worth of $56K claim to be middle class? That is dirt poor folks. That means they don't own a house or have any equity if they do. They have no IRA or 401K. They have no savings. And they have little personal property.
Heck two cars are worth $40K. Throw in some furniture, jewelry, lawn equipment, and TV's and that gets you to $56K. If $56K is "middle class", what is lower class? $2K? >>
Not so fast there . They may have all that stuff but 56k is whats left after subtracting student loan and credit card debt and auto debt.
Plenty of people have 2 cars worth 40 grand but they have a note on them 6 years long. Plenty have a house that is worth less than they paid for that matter with 20 years of payments to go.
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<< <i>How can anyone with a net worth of $56K claim to be middle class? That is dirt poor folks. That means they don't own a house or have any equity if they do. They have no IRA or 401K. They have no savings. And they have little personal property.
Heck two cars are worth $40K. Throw in some furniture, jewelry, lawn equipment, and TV's and that gets you to $56K. If $56K is "middle class", what is lower class? $2K? >>
Not so fast there . They may have all that stuff but 56k is whats left after subtracting student loan and credit card debt and auto debt.
Plenty of people have 2 cars worth 40 grand but they have a note on them 6 years long. Plenty have a house that is worth less than they paid for that matter with 20 years of payments to go. >>
If that's the case, you have no business buying precious metals or coins. I agree with the poster he took his post down about that. I've never bought a car and not paid in full (buy a used car). I've never not paid off my credit card bill every month. Learn to live within your means.
So what is lower class? $2K net worth?
P.S. Low Income (aka lower class) or bottom quartile have a zero or negative net worth. $2K? Heck they'd feel rich!
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<< <i>
<< <i>How can anyone with a net worth of $56K claim to be middle class? That is dirt poor folks. That means they don't own a house or have any equity if they do. They have no IRA or 401K. They have no savings. And they have little personal property.
Heck two cars are worth $40K. Throw in some furniture, jewelry, lawn equipment, and TV's and that gets you to $56K. If $56K is "middle class", what is lower class? $2K? >>
Not so fast there . They may have all that stuff but 56k is whats left after subtracting student loan and credit card debt and auto debt.
Plenty of people have 2 cars worth 40 grand but they have a note on them 6 years long. Plenty have a house that is worth less than they paid for that matter with 20 years of payments to go. >>
If that's the case, you have no business buying precious metals or coins. I agree with the poster he took his post down about that. I've never bought a car and not paid in full (buy a used car). I've never not paid off my credit card bill every month. Learn to live within your means.
So what is lower class? $2K net worth? >>
I have no auto loans either, but many do. If you don't own them they aren't worth 40k .
Training Joe SixPack to be good little consumers means they think financing a new car every few years is the American way. Buying big screens on store credit cards at 29% interest. Buying houses with little or no down payment. They may be surrounded by the latest and greatest of everything they are worth nothing.
I bet if you subtract everything you should there are folks living outwardly middle class lifestyles that are worth less than that 2k number.
Including retirement funds? How do these people ever expect to retire at any age? I find it hard to believe that someone who is considered middle class has ZERO retirement funds.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>I bet if you subtract everything you should there are folks living outwardly middle class lifestyles that are worth less than that 2k number.
Including retirement funds? How do these people ever expect to retire at any age? I find it hard to believe that someone who is considered middle class has ZERO retirement funds. >>
Nobody in the bottom 50% of our country can be considered middle class today. And yes, over 50% of America has $0 in retirement funds.
Since I'm also being forced to support countless others who would do bad things to me if they only had the chance, should I just simply walk away and say, "That's All Folks"?
I'm not a big fan of the system.
I knew it would happen.
I feel that I've worked hard to get here, and I started with nothing like most people do, and spend my time providing for my family by working and saving and investing and enjoying life
IMO the founding fathers had it right on those early coins: To be esteemed, be useful. Mind your business. And I still believe that Liberty is the parent of Science and Industry.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>I bet if you subtract everything you should there are folks living outwardly middle class lifestyles that are worth less than that 2k number.
Including retirement funds? How do these people ever expect to retire at any age? I find it hard to believe that someone who is considered middle class has ZERO retirement funds. >>
Nobody in the bottom 50% of our country can be considered middle class today. And yes, over 50% of America has $0 in retirement funds. >>
The determining factor seems to be the amount of personal debt one holds. One is either a slave to debt or is financially free. Of course, the financially free also includes those at the bottom of the economic ladder who are provided for by others.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
<< <i>How can anyone with a net worth of $56K claim to be middle class? That is dirt poor folks. That means they don't own a house or have any equity if they do. They have no IRA or 401K. They have no savings. And they have little personal property.
Heck two cars are worth $40K. Throw in some furniture, jewelry, lawn equipment, and TV's and that gets you to $56K. If $56K is "middle class", what is lower class? $2K? >>
I wish. My two cars are worth under $20K but they are paid for...and both are more than 12 years old...and were purchased when they were no newer than 7 yrs old. I'd happily take $10K for all our furniture, jewelry, lawn equipment, and TV. My lawn mower only has 3 of 4 wheels still on it. But the darn thing won't die. It just might make it through next year as well....lol (it's available for $25). But, I don't live in Baleyville either. The first step in cancer research ought to be retraining the American consumer away from fast and processed foods. That would have a much stronger and immediate effect than all current cancer research combined. Unfortunately, that isn't allowed in our current system of Fast Food + Big Pharma + Big Medical Care + Big Box Stores = The American Corporate Way.
and I DO live in baleyville, i guess by definition. Somehow, we manage to not be miserable nor feel like victims. My usual question: yes, we feel the angst. but what should be "do" besides our best?
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Couldn't agree more RR. Unfortunately I have no control over any of that, only what goes on under my roof.
I seem to be supporting too many others who can't, for various reasons support themselves.
I feel for you Jmski, and would guess you keep doing it out of love for them, and from a sense of responsibility. Honorable.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
The Baleyville concept predates my time on this forum so maybe I'm wrong but I never thought it meant the same as 1%'er ville.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>The Baleyville concept predates my time on this forum so maybe I'm wrong but I never thought it meant the same as 1%'er ville.
Since I coined the term "Baleyville" here is it's original meaning: A place that is untouched by the manipulation of money and markets and all of it's residents remain in a free market conscienceness, oblivious to what is going on in the rest of the economic world. An economic Garden of Eden if you will. I named if after our most optimistic poster.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
Since I coined the term "Baleyville" here is it's original meaning: A place that is untouched by the manipulation of money and markets and all of it's residents remain in a free market conscienceness, oblivious to what is going on in the rest of the economic world. An economic Garden of Eden if you will. I named if after our most optimistic poster.
then it's been mis-used from the beginning.
replace "untouched" with "not obsessed", replace "all of it's residents remain in a free market conscienceness" with "its residents believe in the free market", and replace "oblivious to" with "fully aware of yet not obsessed with" and replace " economic garden of eden" with " a realistic, objective view of the economic environment, where folks don't go blaming others for their lot in life" and you'd be getting warmer.
but far be it for me to tell anyone what they should believe about, well, anything
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I bet if you subtract everything you should there are folks living outwardly middle class lifestyles that are worth less than that 2k number.
Including retirement funds? How do these people ever expect to retire at any age? I find it hard to believe that someone who is considered middle class has ZERO retirement funds. >>
Nobody in the bottom 50% of our country can be considered middle class today. And yes, over 50% of America has $0 in retirement funds. >>
The determining factor seems to be the amount of personal debt one holds. One is either a slave to debt or is financially free. Of course, the financially free also includes those at the bottom of the economic ladder who are provided for by others. >>
More than 35 percent of Americans have debts and unpaid bills that have been reported to collection agencies, according to a study released Tuesday by the Urban Institute.
These consumers fall behind on credit cards or hospital bills. Their mortgages, auto loans or student debt pile up, unpaid. Even past-due gym membership fees or cellphone contracts can end up with a collection agency, potentially hurting credit scores and job prospects, said Caroline Ratcliffe, a senior fellow at the Washington-based think tank.
"Roughly, every third person you pass on the street is going to have debt in collections," Ratcliffe said. "It can tip employers' hiring decisions, or whether or not you get that apartment."
The study found that 35.1 percent of people with credit records had been reported to collections for debt that averaged $5,178, based on September 2013 records. The study points to a disturbing trend: The share of Americans in collections has remained relatively constant, even as the country as a whole has whittled down the size of its credit card debt since the official end of the Great Recession in the middle of 2009.
more here
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It's hard not to obsess about inequality of economic treatment when your marginal income is being wasted by a "higher authority" that pits one side against the other just to stay in power for its own perks and privileges - to the detriment of society in general. It's an insolvable puzzle that needs to be solved. The politicos and bankers are way more obsessed with keeping their power than any one of us could ever be obsessed about their shenanigans, but you're correct about the unhealthiness of it. Which is why it needs to be solved. General awareness is a first step.
Truth be told, the marginal income that's being wasted on corporate welfare, banking welfare and welfare for making individuals more and more dependent on the government could be used to help people that you actually care about but instead, the government doles it out as political favors. Being focused on this type of waste isn't obsessiveness. Surely you don't endorse the waste and corruption that is *still growing* in NYC and DC. There is a difference between blaming others and observing the reality that things just aren't right.
You're either oblivious or you aren't. Obliviousness isn't helpful if believe that you will never be affected by the corruption. If you are "fully aware yet not obsessed with" these problems, why do you consider other posters obsessed for pointing them out? Making someone else out to be obsessed for pointing out a problem is much akin to calling someone an extremist. Explain to me how this is at all helpful?
I knew it would happen.
The awkwardness of the wave of polarity sweeping our society has made harsh language and demeaning talk the mark of the day along with name calling, finger pointing, and accusation. Hopefully, those in our little forum will see the wisdom of abandoning the contemporary focus of polarizing behavior, our side against your side, and instead focus on treating each other like neighbors.
Just my take on Baleyville but hey, it's early...have a nice day.
GOT GOLD?
<< <i>replace "untouched" with "not obsessed", replace "all of it's residents remain in a free market conscienceness" with "its residents believe in the free market", and replace "oblivious to" with "fully aware of yet not obsessed with" and replace " economic garden of eden" with " a realistic, objective view of the economic environment, where folks don't go blaming others for their lot in life" and you'd be getting warmer.
It's hard not to obsess about inequality of economic treatment when your marginal income is being wasted by a "higher authority" that pits one side against the other just to stay in power for its own perks and privileges - to the detriment of society in general. It's an insolvable puzzle that needs to be solved. The politicos and bankers are way more obsessed with keeping their power than any one of us could ever be obsessed about their shenanigans, but you're correct about the unhealthiness of it. Which is why it needs to be solved. General awareness is a first step.
Truth be told, the marginal income that's being wasted on corporate welfare, banking welfare and welfare for making individuals more and more dependent on the government could be used to help people that you actually care about but instead, the government doles it out as political favors. Being focused on this type of waste isn't obsessiveness. Surely you don't endorse the waste and corruption that is *still growing* in NYC and DC. There is a difference between blaming others and observing the reality that things just aren't right.
You're either oblivious or you aren't. Obliviousness isn't helpful if believe that you will never be affected by the corruption. If you are "fully aware yet not obsessed with" these problems, why do you consider other posters obsessed for pointing them out? Making someone else out to be obsessed for pointing out a problem is much akin to calling someone an extremist. Explain to me how this is at all helpful? >>
It's hard not to obsess about inequality of economic treatment when your marginal income is being wasted by a "higher authority" that pits one side against the other just to stay in power for its own perks and privileges - to the detriment of society in general.
Well said.
Knowledge is the enemy of fear
<< <i>Used to work with a gal that drove to a LA casino every time she saved up $300. No way she had $2k net worth. >>
Ahhh but she was only one jackpot away.....
Not from financial independence, but a $2,000 net worth. At least until the next trip.
Only the ones who stayed died, and not everyone stayed.
I knew it would happen.
<< <i>I'm sure in the population that lived in the shadow of Vesuvius there were oblivious and well informed.... All died. >>
Same concept applies to the Yellowstone caldera, San Andreas fault, and the entire east coast (tsunami). All of these events will occur in the future, just a matter if it's on our watch or the next guy's .
We're both oblivious and well-informed.
<< <i>Used to work with a gal that drove to a LA casino every time she saved up $300. No way she had $2k net worth. >>
Bingo !
Lots of people who think/act like this. Like somehow its my problem because of the poor choices they make.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>Used to work with a gal that drove to a LA casino every time she saved up $300. No way she had $2k net worth. >>
Bingo !
Lots of people who think/act like this. Like somehow its my problem because of the poor choices they make. >>
It's not your fault , I'm starting to think it isn't all her fault either though.
The average adult is so uninformed about finances it almost has to be deliberate on the part of someone.
Told me that she spent yesterday at the hospital because of Fibromyalgia. I sense that Fibromyalgia would be gone if she started exercising and quit smoking. Either way, the ACA figures that I should be paying triple the insurance premium that she does as I am twice her age. Bull. I didn't spend yesterday laid up. I was out riding my bike and lifting weights.
Baleyville needs a new Emperor. Preferably the next one will be clothed.
My household consists of Arizona Jack and a cat named Alley, a rescue.
Your point is well taken regarding one major type of tax -- personal income tax.
But the middle class and even the (working) poor still pay a lot in on Social Security and Medical taxes, sales and consumption taxes, property taxes, etc. Basically anyone working, and even retirees and others drawing a check, is paying a substantial amount in these other taxes.
<< <i>Baseball,
Your point is well taken regarding one major type of tax -- personal income tax.
But the middle class and even the (working) poor still pay a lot in on Social Security and Medical taxes, sales and consumption taxes, property taxes, etc. Basically anyone working, and even retirees and others drawing a check, is paying a substantial amount in these other taxes. >>
Here is what happened on January 1st 2014:
Top Income Tax bracket went from 35% to 39.6%
Top Income Payroll Tax went from 37.4% to 52.2%
Capital Gains Tax went from 15% to 28%
Dividend Tax went from 15% to 39.6%
A partial list of the various ways in which citizens of the US are taxed:
Accounts Receivable Tax
Building Permit Tax
Capital Gains Tax
CDL license Tax
Cigarette Tax
Corporate Income Tax
Deficit spending and debt servicing (Fiscal 2011 state and local debt per capita was $9184)
Dog License Tax
Federal Income Tax
Federal Unemployment Tax (FUTA)
Fishing License Tax
Food License Tax
Fuel permit tax
Gasoline Tax
Hunting License Tax
Inflation
Inheritance Tax Interest expense (tax on the money)
Inventory tax IRS Interest Charges (tax on top of tax)
IRS Penalties (tax on top of tax)
Liquor Tax (Spirits, wine and beer)(From zero per gallon in Vermont to $34.22 in Washington for spirits)
Local Income Tax
Lottery (Fiscal 2011 per capita average was $59)
Luxury Taxes
Marriage License Tax
Medicare and Medicaid Taxes
Property Tax
Real Estate Tax
Septic Permit Tax
Service Charge Taxes
Social Security Tax
Road Usage Taxes (Truckers)
Sales Taxes
Recreational Vehicle Tax
Road Toll Booth Taxes
School Tax
State Income Tax
State Unemployment Tax (SUTA)
Telephone federal excise tax
Telephone federal universal service fee tax
Telephone federal, state and local surcharge taxes
Telephone minimum usage surcharge tax
Telephone recurring and non-recurring charges tax
Telephone state and local tax (Cell phone state and local tax rates in 2013 range from 1.85% in Oregon to 18.67% in Nebraska)
Telephone usage charge tax
Toll Bridge, Tunnel and Road Taxes
Trailer Registration Tax
Utility Taxes
Vehicle License Registration Tax
Vehicle Sales Tax
Watercraft Registration Tax
Well Permit Tax
Workers Compensation Tax
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>Baseball,
Your point is well taken regarding one major type of tax -- personal income tax.
But the middle class and even the (working) poor still pay a lot in on Social Security and Medical taxes, sales and consumption taxes, property taxes, etc. Basically anyone working, and even retirees and others drawing a check, is paying a substantial amount in these other taxes. >>
Here is what happened on January 1st 2014:
Top Income Tax bracket went from 35% to 39.6%
Top Income Payroll Tax went from 37.4% to 52.2%
Capital Gains Tax went from 15% to 28%
Dividend Tax went from 15% to 39.6%
>>
And what happened on 01/01/14 shouldn't matter if you're in the "middle class". According to most people here, only the Baleys of the world should have to be complaining about those things, and we should all be thankful that he is paying them because most of us, according to so many here, don't seem to be paying them because we aren't in the "top income tax bracket" and don't have any assets to be garnering capital gains or dividends from.
As for the litany of tax items you list, most of those are either inconsequential or aren't paid by many people in society. >>
They all add up. Most Americans pay at least 15 of the taxes listed. Check the percentage of your cell phone bill alone that is for taxes. I'm "middle class" and the Jan. 1 increase in capital gains taxes and dividend taxes certainly do matter.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar
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<< <i>
They all add up. Check the percentage of your cell phone bill alone that is for taxes. I'm "middle class" and the Jan. 1 increase in capital gains taxes and dividend taxes certainly do matter. >>
Yes, they add up, but not to anywhere near the level that people want to seem to exaggerate about. If you are "middle class", then I don't see how the 01/01/14 changes impacted you much, if at all. If I'm not mistaken, those rates were directed at the RICH. >>
You don't have to be RICH to earn capital gains or dividends on investments - only wise. Get back with me on the percentage of your cell phone bill that goes to taxes.
Keep an open mind, or get financially repressed -Zoltan Pozsar