Outcome of WIWAG Sentencing

dude · September 30, 2003 3:47AM

I just got off the phone with Assistant U. S. Attorney Melanie K. Pierson. Here is what I found out.

The hearing for sentencing was held on September 22nd in San Diego. Defendants John Slight and Craig Kreider of When It Was A Game, Inc. pled guilty to mail fraud and both were given probation. Kreider and Slight were fined $3,000 each and the corporation of When It Was A Game, Inc. also was fined $6,000.

Also, they are still legally obligated to make full restitution for any fraudulent cards that still exist. They are obligated to give full restitution through 2005.

srs1a · September 30, 2003 3:59AM

Doesn't that seem like a slap on the wrist? A total of $12k in fines?

Perhaps the DA is going to post their addresses and phone numbers on this board so that the real punishment can begin

Vargha · September 30, 2003 4:03AM

It seems pretty light to me.

Basilone · September 30, 2003 4:05AM

No doubt...they still made out in the end...Im sure they made way more than $12k...plus how many people are going to go through their cards....heck...how many regular, casual eBay collectors even know about it?

So much for crime doesn't pay.

John

MyBigToe · September 30, 2003 4:14AM

Crime pays at the white collar level. We see it over and over. Let's see...sell several million dollars in mis-graded or fraudulently graded cards, buy back a few because those directly and indirectly involved prefer that this be kept quiet and then end up with no real punishment other than 12K in fines. A complete folking joke.

Burglary comes with a minimum 3 year sentence in most states, regardless of the amount involved. Why is this any different? This system needs to be revamped.

And what a bonus too. They are requiring these lowlives to make restitution through 2005? Until someone comes out and tells the public what really happened, what to look for and how the cards were sold--REAL LEGENDS' GRADE AND TRADE, there will be no more restitution.

Basilone · September 30, 2003 4:22AM

MyBigToe-

Who is the money man behind Real Legends? Did they know what was going on?

John

Dhjacks · September 30, 2003 4:23AM

Too bad the whole darn thing wasn't on Court TV. Then maybe we'd have a clue as the the extent of the evidence.

dude · September 30, 2003 4:30AM

The fines do seem low, but I'm sure they have a pretty sizeable legal bill plus the resistution has cost them too. They also have to pay PSA for every card reviewed whether it was tampered with or not.

Any of you lawyers may correct me, but if I'm not mistaken, even though they got probation, they still are felons. That's nothing to brag about.

I also wonder if PSA/CU will take civil action against them?

Basilone · September 30, 2003 4:41AM

Good News for them....I do not believe there are background checks to set up at shows.

John

qualitycards · September 30, 2003 5:13AM

<< Let's see...sell several million dollars in mis-graded or fraudulently graded cards >>

TOE - How do you know it was this much? Maybe they got busted after a few thousand $ worth. I do not know, so how can you project 7 figures of switched cards?...jay

PSAtan · September 30, 2003 6:06AM

This is a complete travesty. Black kids get in more trouble for driving in Beverly Hills at night. I wrote a post on this previously outlining my feelings so I won't get into it. However, this news has ruined my day. These guys will be up and selling cards on ebay with a different front by the end of the week. My hope is someone will post pictures and keep tabs on them so we are all able to avoid them.

12 thousand is one the fine for one reslabbed card.

I'll have the welcome mat ready for them,

Satan

DaBigHurt · September 30, 2003 6:40AM

I wonder how much the government wasted on going after these 2. I would wager the total cost of the manpower and resources devoted to the case was well over $12,000.

But I bet they learned their lesson!! lol

zardoz51 · September 30, 2003 6:42AM

Yes, 12K plus legal is certainly enough to discourage anyone else from ever contemplating perpetrating such an insidious act. (Chuckle Chuckle)

A few thousand bucks worth of cards, someone said? An accurate amount for a couple of average days of operation IMHO.........except they weren't in operation for just a couple of days.

Oh well, fortunately PSA reacted swiftly and got the new tamper resistant/evident holder out in order to discourage any further rascally behavior. Oooooops.

Well one look at their financials released today should be enough to put the wind up them. Anyone notice that they sold off the currency division (Lynn Knight) a couple of weeks ago?

MyBigToe · September 30, 2003 6:42AM

I thought that Barry Halper was Real Legends. Real Legends sold millions of dollars worth of WIWAG's junk. The restitution that they have made is minimal. A drop in the bucket compared to the crime. If you think that this was a crime that involved thousands of dollars then I have some real estate I would like to sell you. This is more than a few hundred $75 cards that were re-holdered. Why else would PSA be so quiet and vague about the details.

Their punishment did not fit the crime. Their legal bills are their own doing and does not restore PSA or Real Legends' name nor make the public whole. Legal bills are not a punishment but a consequence of being a scumbag.

In a civil suit there would be people who have not talked about the details of the crime who would have to spill all of the beans. It could be very ugly.

MyBigToe · September 30, 2003 6:49AM

P.S. It is my understanding that WIWAG has never been out of the business only that they could no longer sell directly to the public or submit directly to PSA. Funny that these restrictions only punish the collectors who still cannot see what can hurt them.

I suggest that anyone who is still buying cards out on eBay do their research. I am not mentioning names but I can assure you that these two ebay ids are not on my favorites list.

You all had better hope that Real Legends does not settle out of court. That is your only hope that you will find out what happened.

WAKE UP PEOPLE. IGNORANCE IS NOT AN EXCUSE. START ASKING THOSE TOUGH QUESTIONS THAT HAVE SCARED YOU FOR SO LONG.

zardoz51 · September 30, 2003 6:57AM

I guess that the US District Attorney didn't accept my suggestion on my victim's statement when I suggested that they be strung up by their balls with piano wire.

Vargha · September 30, 2003 7:01AM

The DOJ doesn't take the suggestions of most people who have had a sex-change operation very seriously. Why should you be any different?

zardoz51 · September 30, 2003 7:04AM

That's a species change, not a sex change!

Now run along and post another 83 worthless posts to add to your other 9917 of similar quality so you can get that 10k and a new title.

I do have a few suggestions!

joker73 · September 30, 2003 7:27AM

This thread reminds me ... I gave up after leaving 5 unanswered messages over a few month span on the FBI 800 number they gave out ages ago. I know others here got responses, but not me. I guess my lone $350 card wasn't worth their trouble. Assuming there are others out there like me, there will be many more "WIWAGed" cards in circulation than out, and that just plain sucks.

Robert

qualitycards · September 30, 2003 7:29AM

<< A few thousand bucks worth of cards, someone said? >>

ZARDOZ - I am the someone, and stated "How do we know what amount it was, be it a few thousand $ or like MBT stated millions of $. I still would like to know what kind of $ figures were dealing with, be it high or low. I wonder what the WIWAG boys confessed to...jay

dude · September 30, 2003 7:36AM

What was Grade and Trade's eBay ID?

goodriddance189 · September 30, 2003 7:47AM

gradeandtrade1

scdgradeandtrade

those are the ones i remember

goodriddance189 · September 30, 2003 7:54AM

to add to that, they also used Gaigradeandtrade (albeit not much since that id only has 22 feedback)

PSAtan · September 30, 2003 7:58AM

As many of you know, I'm a tad bit anti-authority. This incident, though not a threat to national security, represents the continuing erosion of our First Amendment rights. The public is constantly being kept in the dark. Government agencies are not required to release any information. Getting court papers is a friggin' nightmare. We've become complacent. We have no means of fighting back. There is no counter-culture today. In the 60's, kids screwed, dropped acid and became nuisances in protest. They didn't have anything, thus, they had nothing to lose. These are scary times. There's something very frightening floating around in the air - It's fear. After 40 years of cover-ups starting with the Warren Commission, we're all gun-shy. The Iraqi war had an internal effect on the Country as well as a limb-severing effect on the Iraqis: There is no accountability. We fully recognize that. The government doesn't have to be right to carry out whatever whim strikes them as fun. Our system of checks and balances is kaput. The executive branch is too powerful. We didn't find any WPMs in Iraq. We didn't even catch Hussein. Now, we're losing more soldiers trying to reorganize Iraq than we did usurping the government there. We have no idea what we're doing over there. We've become the Jolly Red, White and Blue Giant riverdancing all over the globe. Our feet are double the size of Shaqs. We're stepping on things and not even noticing. People look like ants to the Jolly Giant. None of us want to run out of safe hiding places and yell up at the Jolly R,W & G giant that he's misbehaving. Chances are the giant will just put a foot down on you. I'm afraid of the government. Heck, we all are. There's reason to be. I think they've realized this and have started to capitalize on it. They have weapons like the IRS, exposing your wife as a CIA agent and tracking every single move you make via credit card, your activity on the internet and surveillance equipment beyond our wildest imagination. At one time, these scare tactics were used against our opponents. Now, we know we're often the targets.

This is all a bit off topic, but how are we going to protect ourselves and unify into a single voice that demands some form of the truth? I don't know. As a writer, it's partly my responsibility to find a way to voice my concern. There aren't a lot of places left to do it. Meida outlets are all vertically integrated. Business power has taken the form of a very sturdy oligarchy.

We've all been broken down into very small self-interest groups squabbling over nonsense. I just hope that we can put our differences away soon before we lose any form of recourse.

Sorry about the rant,

Satan

goodriddance189 · September 30, 2003 8:00AM

"what the American public doesn't know is what makes them the American public"

-some punk band

MyBigToe · September 30, 2003 9:14AM

Does it trouble anyone else that it took someone from the public, Dude, to contact the DA's office and to report this information here? I am sure that PSA was at the sentencing or at the very least knew the outcome on 9/22 but they did not see it fit to advise the public of the extension on the period covered for restitution. Shhhhh. Be vewy vewy quiet, I'm huntin' wabbits.

If it smells like sh!t and tastes like sh!t then it must be sh!t. Just wondering when this thread will be removed by the powers that be.

Mantlefan · September 30, 2003 9:35AM

Certainly the punishment does not fit the crime. These two have forever damaged our confidence in PSA cards. Every time I see a weak PSA 9 on EBAY, my first thought is "is this a WIWAG card"? I'm disappointed in the court's leniency and also in PSA for not doing more to provide specific information on the cards involved. How many cards were involved? Which cards were targeted? The trial is now over, so PSA can't claim " no comment" because of an ongoing trial. Until PSA gives us specific answers to these questions, this wound is not going to heal.

calleocho · September 30, 2003 10:03AM

the sentence seems pretty weak..i hope that between repaying and lawyer fees they are out of bussiness for good.

Satan i think you have been hanging out w/ Orwell too much lately...relax...

goodriddance189 · September 30, 2003 10:33AM

PSAtan makes some very valid points. and this is coming from me, a hardcore conservative

dude · September 30, 2003 10:39AM

goodriddance -- Thanks for the info.

Incidently, it's far from over for WIWAG. There is a pending legal action against WIWAG from Legacy, and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if PSA will take action (unless some settlement has already been made).

Like Jay, I'd like to see how someone can prove that WIWAG sold millions of dollars worth of cards. Even the most outlandish educated estimations that I've heard from reliable sources are a tiny fraction of $2M+.

Ullr · September 30, 2003 10:47AM

What a Joke! Even after they pay their fines and restitution costs they will still come out ahead.

It's a shame criminals can rip you off with little risk of any real penalty while lesser offenses will get you thrown in jail.

A pirate radio station, here in town, "Burlington Free Radio" was raided by the FCC today. They operate a 10 watt station that cannot broadcast all they way across town (Burlington, VT. is no metropolis). They do not have an FCC license but do not interfere with any legal stations. It was reported on VPR today that they face fines of up to $100,000 and jail time. Yet they hurt no one, their only crime is offering people a different point of few than corporate media.

FCC penalties

Free Radio Burlington

So, it seems to me, its OK to switch some cards and keep your mouth shut, but if you speak your mind your screwed.

goodriddance189 · September 30, 2003 11:01AM

<< Incidently, it's far from over for WIWAG. There is a pending legal action against WIWAG from Legacy, and it wouldn't surprise me a bit if PSA will take action (unless some settlement has already been made). >>

i just hope PSA passes their civil suit "winnings" onto the people who deserve it- the collectors who got screwed

RobE · September 30, 2003 11:12AM

No Jail time for mail fraud.
A Federal Crime
12k + legal fees 8k? 10K + restitution = Anybody can do this and get away with a Federal crime.
What are they going to do to find their work in 2 years time.

Didn't a Postal worker get 10 years for doing something that looks like a misdimeanor Felony compared to this issue?

MyBigToe · September 30, 2003 11:17AM

<< Like Jay, I'd like to see how someone can prove the WIWAG sold millions of dollars worth of cards. Even the most outlandish educated estimations that I've heard from reliable sources are a tiny fraction of $2M+. >>

You guys crack me up. In due time ye will see the light. Don't kid yourself that this was some small time operation. No offense, but those of you who have both a substantial investment in PSA graded cards and who could never in a million years fathom PSA doing anything wrong, will have a hard time with the reality of this event. It might take more than court transcripts to open your eyes.

PSA did not commit the crime but have they done all that they can to mitigate damages to the public or are they doing what they feel will mitigate damages to themselves?

Want to chalk it up to speculation and write it off? That's cool my babies. It's all good. I am not losing sleep over this, despite how disturbing the entire event unfolded and was then ignored.

As I said, right now your best friend is Real Legends. They are your ticket to the truth. Answers are not going to come voluntarily by those that know the details.

Sleep well,

Toe

NickM · September 30, 2003 12:54PM

PSA knows what card submissions came directly from WIWAG. It's in their invoices and shipment records. In any lawsuit against WIWAG (or perhaps against Real Legends for negligence), PSA's records could be subpoenaed.
Anyone want to become a plaintiff?

Nick

OhioTaz · September 30, 2003 1:03PM

I am guessing $20-50K in legal bills.

I would much rather pay a huge fine ($1M+) than be labelled a felon.

The government probably made a reasonable deal here. Conspiracy theorists like PSatan aside (sorry but it is a little tough to take that last post seriously) it is not at all difficult to obtain court records. It just requires a little effort. Thanks to Dan for supplying more effort than the rest of us have mustered up!

Greg

HCS · September 30, 2003 1:23PM

A bullet in the back of the head? Life imprisonment? A billion dollar fine? What would be appropriate? These guys are now convicted felons of a federal crime. Their lives are surely tough and much more difficult than before. Take comfort in knowing that they are convicted felons and keep their names alive on these boards for all to remember. They must be OSTRACIZED. That in itself is severe punishment.

MyBigToe · September 30, 2003 1:33PM

<< A bullet in the back of the head? Life imprisonment? A billion dollar fine? >>

or D) All of the above

gemint · September 30, 2003 1:49PM

In light of this decision, I'd like to announce that I'll be selling 100 PSA 10 1952 Mickey Mantles with two stipulations:

1) The first puchaser must pay $125k in advance (after all, a PSA 10 Mantle isn't cheap)
2) Only one card will be sold at a time

Seriously though, I think it would be fair and reasonable to require WIWAG to disclose all the cards that they faked along with serial numbers if available. It doesn't do much good to offer restitution if the courts don't require publication of the damaged goods. Whenever I'll been involved in class action lawsuits (which I guess this is not), the harmed parties were notified of the fraud. In this case, it's more difficult to notify injured parties. So it's imperative that they list the cards that were altered so the collecting public can determine if they were affected. They should also be forced to send this list to any collector who purchased any card from them at any time during the period they were breaking the law.

jackstraw · September 30, 2003 1:49PM

you have forgotten about the 100's of cards bought and sold through card shows and ebay. so psa's records a minor.
i can remember back in the day when i couldn't wait to get the scd to see if they had an auction going on that week. i can also remember consigning many cards to them one being a jerry rice rookie psa 9. the card at the time sold for nothing and i was kind on upset . how hard would it have been for them to do this to a jerry rice rookie that routinly sells or sold for 200 bucs (i have no idea what it sells for now) ?have you ever been at a show and seen a rice rookie and say to yourself man my 8 is better? they probably did this on many vintage cards but i bet they did it to these type cards that sell for 2/300 bucs a pop. its like my old saying if i am going to counterfeit money i would do 20's because they never check them. i can name probably 25 cards from the 70's 80's that they could have done this to easily (and all sold for 200 or so easy) montana,elway,rice,lemieux,jordan, gretzky(this just reminded me of an opc gretzky rookie i bought from them it was a psa 8 and was terrible and i returned right away. i bet that was 96 or 97) think about they probably had stacks of these cards that were borderline nm mt or mint and they just kept submitting the same 5 or 6. i bet they were not the only dealer that was doing this they just the ones that got caught.

NickM · September 30, 2003 2:15PM

jackstraw - remember that WIWAG was submitting cards to PSA to get the holders that they later altered. That's why PSA's records of every serial number given to a card submitted by WIWAG would provide a "checklist" so that suspicious owners of cards could see if their card is on the list of WIWAG submissions and thereby suspect.

Nick

RobE · September 30, 2003 2:18PM

<< 
Seriously though, I think it would be fair and reasonable to require WIWAG to disclose all the cards that they faked along with serial numbers if available. It doesn't do much good to offer restitution if the courts don't require publication of the damaged goods. Whenever I'll been involved in class action lawsuits (which I guess this is not), the harmed parties were notified of the fraud. In this case, it's more difficult to notify injured parties. So it's imperative that they list the cards that were altered so the collecting public can determine if they were affected. They should also be forced to send this list to any collector who purchased any card from them at any time during the period they were breaking the law. >>

Like an auto recall notice.

Ultimately the consumer is the victim because they own these cards.It's only fair that all parties involved make some sort of publication.

All cards will be located inside 2 + years.
Who's responsible after wiwag completes
their agreement passed down by the court.

Dhjacks · September 30, 2003 2:41PM

PSatan,
What an alarmist bunch of carp. I believe we went into Iraq to finish a job that should have been finished a dozen years earlier. I also believe we live in a world where not everyone has good intentions. We, as Americans, need to keep better tabs on who is here and what is being contemplated. The 'government' is/are people like you and I.....elected officials, law enforcement officers, FBI Agents, CIA Agents, Military personel, Judges, etc...'Which of these are out to get you? Which individual who is trying to think of ways to prevent another 9/11 is your Boogieman?
Is it the removal of your shoes in an airport? The tapping of your cell phone call to your wife? What ilicit behavior are you so petrified of exposing?
I guess I'm just 'naive', but I haven't been threatened by anyone representing the USA. I'm more threatened by the ACLU and other
groups who cost us so much in wasting court costs and red tape.

sixdart · September 30, 2003 2:57PM

PSA could not comment on the case details while it was pending, under investigation or in court. Now that there is closure ... Joe?

DaBigHurt · September 30, 2003 3:40PM

<< A bullet in the back of the head? Life imprisonment? A billion dollar fine? What would be appropriate? These guys are now convicted felons of a federal crime. Their lives are surely tough and much more difficult than before. Take comfort in knowing that they are convicted felons and keep their names alive on these boards for all to remember. They must be OSTRACIZED. That in itself is severe punishment. >>

I think the answer is jail time. Around 6-12 months. And a stipulation made that these 2 are to be permenately barred from buying/selling/trading sports cards ever again.

PSAtan · September 30, 2003 4:37PM

I apologize for foisting my personal political beliefs on this thread. This isn't the correct forum. And, I'm not worried the local police are trying to erase my identity. I'm not nuts. I just wish some of you sheep would use your heads for once. With WIWAG, do you really think these felons were careful not to take full advantage of the public? Did they only want 2 million dollars? Could it be that "greed" might be involved here? If you're going to break the law, don't you try to maximize your haul? After not being caught for years, don't you think the WIWAG guys probably stepped up their operation with foolish confidence? Why won't PSA release the serial numbers of the cards? Shouldn't a public company act responsibly? Aren't there shareholders who are entitled to the truth along with the collectors?

Could there possibly be agendas that are self-serving within this WIWAG fiasco? I don't know. Maybe I'm stupid.

I'm done. I apologize again for getting off topic with the political stuff earlier.

S.

sellerman23 · September 30, 2003 11:58PM

gemint and others are right.
The only way that us collectors will be helped here is if the serial numbers are released. PSA has all the stuff and I am willing to bet that somehow, WIWAG also kept some sort of records. This stuff has to be made public and I don't mean in some courthouse basement. There should be a link right on the PSA website. I also think that WIWAG should publicly provide the information. I know that eBay's records only go back so far, but do they have back-ups? Is there a way to fish out all their old auctions? I know that many people keep records of where they bought their cards, but I don't. I am pretty sure that I have bought some slabbed PSA cards from WIWAG on eBay and I think that I should be able to go back and find out which ones they were.

Dave
sellerman23

jackstraw · October 1, 2003 12:30AM

<< There should be a link right on the PSA website. I also think that WIWAG should publicly provide the information. >>

i doubt psa wants to put a recall notice on their website. i am just guessing. i would say that would blacken the other eye. think about it psa wants to sweep this under the rug as fast as they can and move on. they don't want links all over the graded card planet saying we were comprimized and here are the cards that we suspect under these serial numbers that would just open the door for anti-psa people to bury them in an open forum.

1954 · October 1, 2003 12:55AM

Psasatan-
Looks like you have brought up another bad subject again. Just stick to cards and non-offensive jokes, that will work better for all of us.

Thanks,
1954

Tipem · October 1, 2003 1:36AM

I agree that this is a travesty of justice.I am sure that the amount of money that was scammed is probably quite a bit more than we are being led to believe.Also, I am sure that this involves thousands of cards instead of just a few hundred.If I were a dishonest card dealer,this outcome would be a confirmation that crime indeed does pay.

I would think that PSA has an obligation to post the serial numbers of the cards that were submitted by WIWAG.Even though it might probably be damaging at first,I think that it would strengthen PSAs outlook by the collecting community in the long run.

Joe,

Why is PSA silent?
Should this subject maybe be addressed by the highest level of management at CU?

The inability of PSA to release card serial numbers will surely be the topic of all message boards and card shows across the card collecting community.If PSA is hopeing to sweep this under the rug,it is my humble opinion that this will do MUCH more damage than full disclosure would.

While I am not a big submitter and will still continue to have faith in PSA,I am left wondering why the powers that be are not seemingly concerned with their customers(whom,by the way ultimately pay the salaries).If the people that run PSA were also big holders of graded cards,What would you want out of your company?What would you feel are their obligations to their customers?

While this may seem as a PSA bashing response,I am just voicing what will probably be uttered over and over again if PSA does not take a proactive stance.

Just my opinion,

Vic

PSAtan · October 1, 2003 7:18AM

1954,

I think you meant to say that "It would work better for you". I don't remember any election for mayor of this board. The concept here is to let every man speak for himself/herself. How are those spammed stand-ups selling, Mr. Purity?

Baa! Baa!

S.

Outcome of WIWAG Sentencing

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