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Langbords win.

SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
I just looked at the appellate court docket and saw that the Court Of Appeal has issued a ruling today that vacates the trial court judgment and sends the case back to the trial court for further proceedings consistent with the opinion issued by the Court Of Appeal.

Have not seen the opinion of the Court Of Appeal. I assume it will be available shortly and that it will be widely distributed.

The case will apparently continue its journey through the court system.
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Comments

  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    i am astonished.
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • DeepCoinDeepCoin Posts: 2,781 ✭✭✭
    The Road Goes On Forever.....
    Retired United States Mint guy, now working on an Everyman Type Set.
  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The opinion of the court is posted. 60 pages [1-34 is the opinion of the majority of the court and 35-60 is a dissenting opinion]. I looked at the tail end of the majority opinion [page 34].

    The court is ordering the government to return the 10 double eagles to the Langbords.

    Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    And with the absence of malice,… I would dare challenge any citizen anywhere to find a better system of governance than this, in the world today, if these coins are returned to the family. In addition, this case had to be one of the most intensive and exhaustive undertakings in many years. By the people and for the people .
    'tis a good day.

    Wow … but until Joan sings, I'm going to withhold a happy dance image
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is great to see.

    It is always wonderful to see individual rights triumph over government procedures and red tape.

    Mebbe now this will even mark the end of modern (1933 to date) bashing. image
    Tempus fugit.
  • ashelandasheland Posts: 22,612 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's great! image
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I wonder if they'll crack em out!image
  • RaufusRaufus Posts: 6,784 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Love it!!!!!! Fantastic!!! Bummer for the buyer of the previously one legal coin. Will be great fun to follow the sale of these coins. How many more will surface now?

    I'd love to know how much taxpayer money was wasted on this case.

    Would b fun to know what folks think that these will bring.

    Just so thrilled about this.

    The Langboards are in for some good times.
    Land of the Free because of the Brave!
  • Great news! Tried to link opinion but I guess a pacer account is req'd.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Love it!!!!!! Fantastic!!! Bummer for the buyer of the previously one legal coin. Will be great fun to follow the sale of these coins. How many more will surface now? >>



    I don't think this means it is over.
  • DavideoDavideo Posts: 1,361 ✭✭✭✭
    Thanks for the info Sanction! Does the government have any sort of appeal recourse and do you think it likely that they take it?
  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,717 ✭✭✭✭✭
    As long as crime pays, there will always be criminals.
    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • TomthecoinguyTomthecoinguy Posts: 849 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>As long as crime pays, there will always be criminals. >>



    I agree, we will always have a government. image
  • GregLGregL Posts: 470
    Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
  • GregLGregL Posts: 470
    The one thing to keep in mind is that this may NOT be the final decision. I would expect the Government to file an appeal to the Supreme Court.

    Greg
    Greg Lyon, ANA Board of Governors 2011-2017 -- The views represented here are my own personal opinions and do not represent those of the American Numismatic Association.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I just looked at the appellate court docket and saw that the Court Of Appeal has issued a ruling today that vacates the trial court judgment and sends the case back to the trial court for further proceedings consistent with the opinion issued by the Court Of Appeal.

    Have not seen the opinion of the Court Of Appeal. I assume it will be available shortly and that it will be widely distributed.

    The case will apparently continue its journey through the court system. >>

    Wow!

    Never mind, I just read your post!


    This is going to be the basis for some changes I think.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Awesome.... great to see this.... now we will see if the government continues or gives it up....Cheers, RickO
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    That's better than losing
    image
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>This is great to see.

    It is always wonderful to see individual rights triumph over government procedures and red tape.

    Mebbe now this will even mark the end of modern (1933 to date) bashing. image >>

    Nah!

    There will ALWAYS be folks out there in the "black and white" world that will continue to see it as nothing more than theft by Izzy Switt which has now been blessed via the efforts of some "slick and slippery" high powered attorney. There minds will NEVER change since they can see it only ONE WAY.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I wonder if they'll crack em out!image >>

    Well, I'll bet that the PCGS Team is working on a proposal at this very minute!
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I skimmed the majority opinion. In summary the court of appeal concluded that the failure of the government to file a forfeiture complaint within the CAFRA deadline requires that the government return the coins to the Langbords and be barred from ever having any claim to same.
  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WOW! image
    This pleases me! We already have too many rare coins locked up that are not on permanent display and really are not accessible.
    To prove beyond any doubt that these coins were stolen and not purchased at the mint is impossible! Based on that alone,
    they should have the coins back.

    What's sad is that this too will be appealed but that's okay. I just hope the Supreme Court agrees with the most recent ruling and
    further hope that it will not take a million years to finish!

    A special thanks to SanctionII for checking on this, following the case so closely and updating us every step of the way....for years!
    Only a million years of updates to go! image

    Thanks SanctionII. image
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
    Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners. :smile:
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Love it!!!!!! Fantastic!!! Bummer for the buyer of the previously one legal coin. >>

    I don't know that the values will be affected all that much. After all, look at how many 1955/55 DDO's are out their yet the relative rice seems unaffected. No doubt it'll become a grading war with the highest graded coins fetching some record prices though.



    << <i>Will be great fun to follow the sale of these coins. How many more will surface now? >>

    From what I understand, if anymore were to surface, the government would chase them in the exact same manner. Unless, of course, they surface with the Langbords. But even then, if they did, it "could" present them with more legal problems since this case dealt specifically with these 10 coins.



    << <i>I'd love to know how much taxpayer money was wasted on this case. >>

    I would like to know how much was spent but remember, the government attorney's get paid the same amount regardless of what they do. I'd think that the only relevant costs might be with filing fee's, grading fee's (wink wink), storage fee's, evidential fee's and what not.



    << <i>Would b fun to know what folks think that these will bring. >>

    I'm thinking at least 7 mil each if not more for the higher graded opieces. Remember, the folks that can afford these literally have "money to burn" should the nights get really cold.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,237 ✭✭✭
    I can hear Laura Sperber warming up her pen and the her checkbook now........


    @ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work.
    Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
  • NotSureNotSure Posts: 2,978 ✭✭✭
    Exactly how long has this nonsense been going on for? I'm torn between being happier that the coins are to be returned and enter the marketplace, or that the gov't actually lost this case.
    I'll come up with something.
  • relicsncoinsrelicsncoins Posts: 7,833 ✭✭✭✭✭
    So in the end, with legal fees etc. the lawyers will end up with all the money or the coins or both.
    Need a Barber Half with ANACS photo certificate. If you have one for sale please PM me. Current Ebay auctions
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>


    << <i>I'd love to know how much taxpayer money was wasted on this case. >>

    I would like to know how much was spent but remember, the government attorney's get paid the same amount regardless of what they do. I'd think that the only relevant costs might be with filing fee's, grading fee's (wink wink), storage fee's, evidential fee's and what not.

    >>



    True, but the time spent on this case could probably have been better spent on something else. Thus it was excessive waste of resources..
  • tyler267tyler267 Posts: 1,233 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I skimmed the majority opinion. In summary the court of appeal concluded that the failure of the government to file a forfeiture complaint within the CAFRA deadline requires that the government return the coins to the Langbords and be barred from ever having any claim to same. >>



    So does this mean that these 10 coins plus the Farouk coin will be legal and all others will still be illegal to own.
  • stevebensteveben Posts: 4,595 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nice!
  • JCMhoustonJCMhouston Posts: 5,306 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I would dare challenge any citizen anywhere to find a better system of governance than this >>



    A Benevolent Dictatorship might work pretty well. The case could have been decided in about an hour.
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Now that the Gov has to return them, what bars the Langbords from selling them? Are they now free to do
    what they want with them?

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    This is good to hear, but it's kind of like winning the 14th round of a 15 round round heavyweight champianship fight, (Yes they used to be that long.) after you have had your brains beat out in the first 13 rounds. It will take a knock-out to win the battle in the 15th round.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,963 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Does the judgement include reimbursement by the government for the Langbords' attorney costs?
    When in doubt, don't.
  • johnny9434johnny9434 Posts: 27,409 ✭✭✭✭✭
    thats good news to hear.
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 12,873 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you SanctionII for sticking with this case and summarizing the proceedings for us for all these years.
    image

    And to the Langbords...image
  • AhrensdadAhrensdad Posts: 2,583 ✭✭✭
    Wow! Sanction, thank you for keeping us updated on this.
    Successful BST Transactions with: WTCG, Ikenefic, Twincam, InternetJunky, bestday, 1twobits, Geoman x4, Blackhawk, Robb, nederveit, mesquite, sinin1, CommemDude, Gerard, sebrown, Guitarwes, Commoncents05, tychojoe, adriana, SeaEagleCoins, ndgoflo, stone, vikingdude, golfer72, kameo, Scotty1418, Tdec1000, Sportsmoderator1 and many others.


    Please visit my website Millcitynumismatics.com
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>The opinion of the court is posted. 60 pages [1-34 is the opinion of the majority of the court and 35-60 is a dissenting opinion]. I looked at the tail end of the majority opinion [page 34].

    The court is ordering the government to return the 10 double eagles to the Langbords.

    Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! >>



    Wow is right! Amazing turnaround!
  • KoveKove Posts: 2,025 ✭✭✭✭
    Excellent!

    Whatever way they won, I've always thought there was a window where they could have legally obtained those coins



    And many thanks to SanctionII for keeping all of us updated on these many years!
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    Great! When will the bidding start at Heritage? I'm in.

    U.S. must return rare double eagle gold coins to family
    By Jonathan Stempel





    (Reuters) - The U.S. government must return 10 exceptionally rare gold coins worth millions of dollars each to a Pennsylvania family from which the purloined coins were seized a decade ago, a federal appeals court ruled on Friday.

    By a 2-1 vote, the 3rd U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Philadelphia said Joan Langbord and her sons Roy and David are the rightful owners of the double eagle $20 gold pieces, after the government ignored their claim to the coins and missed a deadline to seek their forfeiture.

    "The government knew that it was obligated to bring a judicial civil forfeiture proceeding or to return the property, but refused," Circuit Judge Marjorie Rendell wrote. "Having failed to do so, it must return the Double Eagles to the Langbords."

    Patricia Hartman, a spokeswoman for U.S. Attorney Zane Memeger in Philadelphia, said: "We are weighing our options."

    The Philadelphia Mint in 1933 produced 445,500 double eagles. But they were not circulated because President Franklin Roosevelt, trying to halt a bank panic, removed gold coins from circulation and made ownership of large amounts illegal.

    Most of the coins were melted down, but a few were smuggled out, including one that fetched $7.6 million at a 2002 auction after having once been possessed by Egypt's King Farouk.

    The government had long suspected without proving that the late Israel Switt, a gold dealer and father of Joan Langbord, had smuggled some of the coins with the help of a Mint employee.

    It seized the Langbords' double eagles after the family located the coins in a safe deposit box once belonging to Switt, and sought to have the Mint authenticate them.
    http://news.yahoo.com/u-must-return-rare-double-eagle-gold-coins-185510525--finance.html
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I just want to see a real 1964-D Peace dollar.......

    Maybe someday, if enough of these things turn the right way, the government will stop wasting our resources pursing such heinously malevolent evildoers. I'm no proponent of theft, but I'm a huge believer in the bedrock principle of innocent until PROVEN guilty.
  • DIMEMANDIMEMAN Posts: 22,403 ✭✭✭✭✭
    WAY TO GO!!!!! The government needs to keep it's darn nose out of collector coins!!!!!!
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The gov't attorneys (and gov't in general) have no skin in the game, hence the endless legal battle.

    Always easy to spend other peoples money.

    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • RichieURichRichieURich Posts: 8,359 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I skimmed the majority opinion. In summary the court of appeal concluded that the failure of the government to file a forfeiture complaint within the CAFRA deadline requires that the government return the coins to the Langbords and be barred from ever having any claim to same. >>



    I read the majority opinion, Sanction II is correct. Hopefully the government will give up the ghost on this one and legalize ANY and ALL 1933 double eagles. Assuming there are more out there, this would reduce the value of the Langbord coins.

    I said all along that the most significant ground for appeal was the Trial Judge granting the government a "mulligan" by allowing them to file a CAFRA forfeiture action well after the deadline, (the Trial Judge said that the government shouldn't suffer because they had a "misguided legal strategy"; i.e., the decision to not file a CAFRA action on a timely basis).

    All of us owe a big Thank you to Sanction II for his yeoman work in keeping us updated on this! imageimageimage

    An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.

  • jmbjmb Posts: 593 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm no proponent of theft, but I'm a huge believer in the bedrock principle of innocent until PROVEN guilty. >>



    image
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They could have split them 50/50 a decade ago and we'd all be much happier and in less debt which
    is now over 18,000,000,000,000 dollars.

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • SaorAlbaSaorAlba Posts: 7,466 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The Supreme Court takes on only a mere fraction of cases - I doubt this will be taken as far as the Supreme Court.
    In memory of my kitty Seryozha 14.2.1996 ~ 13.9.2016 and Shadow 3.4.2015 - 16.4.21
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I skimmed the majority opinion. In summary the court of appeal concluded that the failure of the government to file a forfeiture complaint within the CAFRA deadline requires that the government return the coins to the Langbords and be barred from ever having any claim to same. >>



    Unfortunately, court decisions can be turned and turned over again like pork chops on a grill.
  • PhillyJoePhillyJoe Posts: 2,682 ✭✭✭✭
    Congrats to the Langbords.
    It is always expensive to sue the government and win; in this case 8 -10 years?
    I always thought the government had a weak case. I thought the Langbords had a good, not great, case.
    The time to prove these were stolen was 80 years ago.
    Sad that the Langbords will have to sell several to pay their attorney but that can be good for numismatics.

    Joe
    The Philadelphia Mint: making coins since 1792. We make money by making money. Now in our 225th year thanks to no competition. image
  • epcjimi1epcjimi1 Posts: 3,489 ✭✭✭
    I hoped that a pro Langbord decision would occur, never thought it would happen.

    >The opinion of the court is posted. 60 pages [1-34 is the opinion of the majority of the court and 35-60 is a dissenting opinion]. I looked at the tail end of the majority opinion [page 34].

    The court is ordering the government to return the 10 double eagles to the Langbords
    >

    ENLIST ALL THE AUCTIONS, SELL 'EM NOW, CAPS INTENDED.

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