Early $5 Gold Fat Head - CAC Worthy?

CharlotteDude · December 20, 2014 11:04PM

One area where I've given serious thought about expanding my collecting interests is into the $5 Fatty series. This is without a doubt, one of the most challenging areas of numismatics. Aside from the 1813, the only relatively collectible dates are the 1814/3, 1818 & 1820. All the others, and there are many, are very rare (e.g. 1823) to downright excessively rare (e.g. 1822). That said, I've been casually looking for one of the better dates ('14/3, '18, or '20), and came across the following example:

This coin is in an NGC AU-53 holder, which I believe is a bit liberally graded, given the wear (AU-50 at best) and overall "look". What do you think about the coin's condition, and particularly, its level of originality? I know the pics aren't the best, not mine, but I think they give the beholder enough of an idea of its "look".

thanks,

'dude

AnkurJ · December 20, 2014 11:14PM

No way to tell from those images.

EVillageProwler · December 20, 2014 11:19PM

The left obverse field concerns me. I agree with AnkurJ that we need better images.

CharlotteDude · December 20, 2014 11:26PM

Sorry.... those are the pics provided by the seller. I would think that if someone was selling a $12-$13K+ coin, they'd want to provide the most "in hand-looking" pics as possible, but alas, 'tis not the case here. Images like this tend to leave me more concerned about potential (hidden) issues, than not.

'dude

PQueue · December 20, 2014 11:30PM

You are a gold expert, trust your instinct. I recently sold my MS63 CAC Fat Head. I love this type.
Even with your pics:
> I see clear signs of luster
> I see clear contrasts which indicates honest wear
> Agree with others, looks like a hairline in the left Obverse field
I will go out on a limb. I think it will cross at grade and CAC.

BillJones · December 20, 2014 11:35PM

From that image I don't think that CAC will endorse it because it appears to have been cleaned. Don't worry yourself about that because what really matters about these coins is what you paid for them, and what is says on the holder is secondary. As you said these coins are very scarce, and for those collectors who want them, beggars can't be choosers.

Unless you have a bank account like Harry Bass did, you can't limit yourself to CAC worthy coins in a series like this. If you have to buy nothing but CAC worthy coins, perhaps you will have to rethink your collector strategy or win the lottery.

When I finished my type set, this was the second to last coin that I needed. This is one of the rarest type coins in the United States coinage series although most collectors don't know that. The vast majority of collectors have never seen one of these coins "in the flesh."

NGC called it an MS-61, which it is not, but with a survival rate of 1% or less of the original mintage, this will do. This coin has not been polished, but it is "too bright" because it has been dipped. I don't find this design attractive, so I was not "loaded for bear" to find one of the best ones in existence. I paid EF money for this coin at auction.

joebb21 · December 20, 2014 11:39PM

<< The left obverse field concerns me. I agree with AnkurJ that we need better images. >>

Left obverse field looks strange

CharlotteDude · December 21, 2014 12:01AM

Given the pics, as bad as they are, I'm on Bill's side on this. The field-to-device look & contrast yells "cleaned, or excessively dipped" to me. Having looked at hundreds of gold coins of interest, many of them via both images and in-hand, this one seems obvious.

FWIW, I don't buy CAC-only coins. I'm comfortable enough to seal a deal based on my opinion of the coin's condition (in hand or by auction representation) and its asking/hammer price. Does a CAC-sticker help? Many times, yes; but not all of the time. For example, here's one that I purchased earlier this year. Is it CAC-worthy?... I think so, but I'm not concerned with that now.

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Now - back to the 1818 HE. As I noted, I think the coin's been cleaned, or at least - vigorously dipped - judging by the images. Now for the clincher - it's also CAC'd.

'dude

fishteeth · December 21, 2014 12:09AM

Any other type of coin and I would probably pass, given that it is an 1818 fat head I would consider this coin. These are so hard to find.
I have always wanted to a date other than 1813 to my collection, just never found a decent looking one without breaking the bank.
here is a CAC AU53 1813 the way I wish other dates could be found

CharlotteDude · December 21, 2014 12:18AM

Bill,
Yes, your 1834 is an attractive coin. While it does appear to have been dipped, it's not excessive and doesn't have that "washed out" look to it. A nice (and very rare date) example indeed.

FT,

That 1813 looks like it would be a gorgeous coin in hand.

Thanks both for sharing,

'dude

291fifth · December 21, 2014 12:20AM

<< No way to tell from those images. >>

The photos are too overexposed to make any judgement.

CaptHenway · December 21, 2014 12:23AM

Love them as a type.

Boosibri · December 21, 2014 12:44AM

I had close to first shot at this coin after it sold in a small regional auction. Needless to say I passed quickly. Is CAC slipping?

TwoSides2aCoin · December 21, 2014 12:57AM

Collectibles Are Cool.

worthy ?

If one is dealing, perhaps. If one is collecting and he knows his coins, my question would be : "Why ?"
I like the coin(s), even the integrity of the holders and those in the approval service to them. Ah, but the players are working the plastic, labels, stickers, grades and "value"… and to that end, as IMPRESSIONS do not mean so much except to the trading world, then my "dealer's thinking cap on" would ask : "Why not ? " They're forces to reckon with even as the coin stands alone.

AnkurJ · December 21, 2014 1:24AM

So we can determine a coins originality or surfaces from images on a computer and use them to question a company's integrity? Seriously....?

CharlotteDude · December 21, 2014 2:01AM

Question a coin's originality based on a computer image? Yes... Seriously. Question a company's integrity based on one bad apple?... That's a stretch of an assumption. Brian just confirmed my strong suspicion. The fact that he saw it and "passed quickly" speaks volumes.

'Dude

jmb · December 21, 2014 2:10AM

The 1818 looks decent, but the image is terrible. Starting out this was my least favorite half eagle design and I thought I would never even purchase one. Now I have 2 and probably overpaid for both, but try finding any that aren't damaged at anywhere near the PCGS listed prices. Both grade AU50. The 1820 is the BD-2 variety (R5+).

AMRC · December 21, 2014 2:14AM

I vote no. Sorry.

CharlotteDude · December 21, 2014 2:21AM

JMB - very true about the guides and problem-free example. I'm sure you had to pay a little extra for that 1813... it's a very nice, eye-appealing example!

Original, unmolested ones are out there, but truly far & few between.

'dude

Bullsitter · December 21, 2014 3:26AM

I agree with Bill 100%, but it's still a very nice coin to own, I'm jealous.

Baley · December 21, 2014 3:29AM

I can't really disagree with the AU53 grade nor the CAC sticker, as they have seen the coin in hand and I have not.

I'd be thrilled to own any coin of this type, and if and when the time comes, mine will probably be in a genuine holder

I do not believe the coin to be worthy of your collection, though, because you are in the market for an original and unmolested one, like your other coins, and this looks dipped.

ColonelJessup · December 21, 2014 4:25AM

Some sweet coins to look at. The one at issue, not so much, but the photos really suck. However, 'dude's 1801 $10 looks more than "good enough" . .

With:

CDN 50 bid = $8,250
CDN 58 bid = $10,000
CDN 60 bid = $10.250

Technical quality aside, I'd be interested in the quote if the OP would care to share it.

edited to add: I've seen sweet 58's bring 11K

coinkat · December 21, 2014 4:41AM

No opinion on the 1818 in view of the image.

The 1801 10 looks terrific and FWIW, I would grade it higher than AU50.

puffer · December 21, 2014 4:53AM

Nice coins, rarely seen at smaller shows. And on the $10 green label Bust coin graded AU50, CAC gold all day long IMO. Just check out Coin Rarities online and their gallery of similar coins (archive).

Cougar1978 · December 21, 2014 4:57AM

The coin is a nice Choice AU and NGC's grade accurately reflects this. It seems to have nice appeal and some luster.

I think it is nicer than AU50. Very few collectors can afford a piece of this type and grade. The eye appeal of the coin and its marketability to a type collector would be the key ingredients in selling it. I definitely would not take a down grade on it if considering crossing it or whatever. Because of its big ticket nature you should give it a shot at CAC if the green bean means that much to you. Sticker or not, at that level of expense, its the coin itself that will pull its own weight.

It is a nice Ch AU which many would love to have in their date or type sets. For me its my opinion of a coin and its eye appeal which counts.

TwoSides2aCoin · December 21, 2014 5:15AM

If the idea is to market (and that's the idea, isn't it ? ) … even if it's ten years later, well I can only add:

Value is the bottom line and current auction records would not only suggest, but numerically dictate that the CAC's involvement in the hobby has increased the "validity" of coins in certain holders. That, to me, is a good thing.

Integrity and value aside, DO you know that CAC's business model increases the chance that the coin's in their system will trade more fluidly and with a more loyal following than those not given their approval ? Or is this assessment a bad assumption

CharlotteDude · December 21, 2014 6:18AM

Thanks Baley - you're correct, sir... I try to place the biggest emphasis on originality. Not something I always did when I started out forming my Charlotte HE collection in the early days, but I've learned that as long as one seeks & acquires good quality coins with good eye appeal at an acceptable cost, there is very little downside.
And thanks for the feedback on the 1801 Eagle. I was glad to be at the right place & at the right time to secure that one.

As for the asking price on the 1818 HE - its listed price is north of $17K.

With:

CDN 50 bid = $8,250
CDN 58 bid = $10,000
CDN 60 bid = $10.250

Technical quality aside, I'd be interested in the quote if the OP would care to share it.

cheers,

'dude

ricko · December 21, 2014 6:42AM

That is a very attractive gold coin BillJones.... Cheers, RickO

dagman100 · December 21, 2014 1:31PM

As previously stated, the series is quite challenging. I appreciate the value of your coin even though it may not CAC. I was recently hooked on the series and went with an 1813, albeit the most common date of the series.

Boosibri · December 21, 2014 2:32PM

<< As previously stated, the series is quite challenging. I appreciate the value of your coin even though it may not CAC. I was recently hooked on the series and went with an 1813, albeit the most common date of the series.

>>

While it may be the most common, it is still very tough in such outstanding condition. This piece appeals to me as a purest.

jmb · December 22, 2014 12:03AM

Beautiful 1813 dagman.

BillJones · December 22, 2014 12:22AM

I don't look down on the 1813 half eagle at all. If it were not for that date, filling the type coin hole in my set would be far more expensive, and I would have a lower grade example. This is a nice looking MS-62 graded coin.

This piece was an upgrade from the first 1813 half eagle I owned which was an AU-58.

CharlotteDude · December 22, 2014 12:30AM

That is a gorgeous '13, DM. And an absolutely lovely MS '13, Bill. I would be humbly proud to own either of them.

'dude

jmb · January 14, 2015 5:49AM

Figured I would bring this back to the top with a new article by Doug Winter on an 1821 he recently sold.

1821 Half Eagle MS63+

topstuf · January 14, 2015 5:57AM

This is a CAC 53 I've owned for a while.

This is a 53 also but not beaned.

I looked quite a while for a fat head. They are multiples rarer than the capped bust right kind but sell for less.

Go figure.

jdillane · January 14, 2015 6:09AM

Some mighty purty dirty gold in this post. Bill Jones' 1813 MS62 ain't dirty but she makes a compelling case to have traded up from the AU58. Very nice!!

BillJones · January 14, 2015 6:29AM

<< This is a CAC 53 I've owned for a while.

This is a 53 also but not beaned.

I looked quite a while for a fat head. They are multiples rarer than the capped bust right kind but sell for less.

Go figure.

>>

The "go figure" is that the Capped Bust five dollar gold is a classic design that many collectors admire. Even though I have all the types I admire it more than the rarer "Fat Heads." Many collectors dream of having a piece of early gold, and they most often center on the Capped Bust Right type than on the later designs.

steveben · January 14, 2015 7:03AM

based on the images, my first thought was that the coin is polished. but, i could also agree PQueue's analysis.

now, that i know the coin is graded and approved, i have to assume the images caused my first impression to be wrong.

ngc and cac aside, if i were a potential buyer of this coin, i'd have to see it in person to decide whether or not i wanted to drop 5 figures on it...especially with those images! it could go either way.

when i look at the images of your 1801 eagle, i'm not concerned about that coin at all. so, what's your price on that one? ;-)

shorecoll · January 14, 2015 7:52AM

The 21 DW sold is really sweet, but I couldn't afford the mortgage payments on it.

topstuf · January 14, 2015 8:33AM

<< 

<< This is a CAC 53 I've owned for a while.

This is a 53 also but not beaned.

I looked quite a while for a fat head. They are multiples rarer than the capped bust right kind but sell for less.

Go figure.

>>

The "go figure" is that the Capped Bust five dollar gold is a classic design that many collectors admire. Even though I have all the types I admire it more than the rarer "Fat Heads." Many collectors dream of having a piece of early gold, and they most often center on the Capped Bust Right type than on the later designs. >>

See, I fell for that old silliness of thinking that RARER coins should cost more than less rarer ones.
I am so ashamed.

topstuf · January 14, 2015 8:36AM

My main gripe is that these ....common... turbans.... are even more pricey than the fatties.

PLUS they are clumsy looking. Too big. Silly.

Baley · January 14, 2015 10:52AM

Here's an 1823 on Ebay that I'm saving up my ebay bucks to buy, I figure in about a thousand years I'll have about enough to pull the trigger

asheland · January 15, 2015 1:18AM

<< Here's an 1823 on Ebay that I'm saving up my ebay bucks to buy, I figure in about a thousand years I'll have about enough to pull the trigger >>

NFC has some serious coins!

Early $5 Gold Fat Head - CAC Worthy?

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