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'Tis the season...(more Trade Dollars)
stealer
Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭
To be thankful for good friends in numismatics. Recently OriginalDan helped me immensely with acquiring a very, very big upgrade to my set after I experienced some complications with my internet. To boot he helped me submit the coin to PCGS and secretly threw in a TrueView as a Christmas gift without my knowing!
It is certainly good to have a network of friends to rely on, and this one will have a special place in my set for a long time coming. Also special thanks for crytpo for stepping aside and letting me go after this coin
It is in an AU55 holder and based on my experience is a very early strike of this variety. It is fully PL with very deep mirrors. It's the earliest die state of the 2/2 Large S that I have ever seen, albeit I haven't seen very many of them. This is a variety I have long sought after.
It is certainly good to have a network of friends to rely on, and this one will have a special place in my set for a long time coming. Also special thanks for crytpo for stepping aside and letting me go after this coin
It is in an AU55 holder and based on my experience is a very early strike of this variety. It is fully PL with very deep mirrors. It's the earliest die state of the 2/2 Large S that I have ever seen, albeit I haven't seen very many of them. This is a variety I have long sought after.
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Comments
<< <i>I know some people collect these by variety or die marriage or something along those lines. Is this a special variety? How rare? >>
Barndog,
I do collect by variety. For this variety I know of a 64, 61 and 60, and two 55's and now this is the third 55 and I have found this variety to be quite difficult to locate.
I'd be afraid to collect such a heavily-counterfeited series
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<< <i>I know some people collect these by variety or die marriage or something along those lines. Is this a special variety? How rare? >>
Barndog,
I do collect by variety. For this variety I know of a 64, 61 and 60, and two 55's and now this is the third 55 and I have found this variety to be quite difficult to locate. >>
That's a special coin and to be PL it becomes a treasure. Nice coin, not prohibitly rare but really scarce overall and really hard nice ( both mine are VFs)
<< <i>nice, right up there in the condition census. Congratulations!
I'd be afraid to collect such a heavily-counterfeited series
Thanks! In reality there aren't as many counterfeits as people make it out to be and it's not such a landmine series
This is definitely not my series but I can sense your enthusiasm.
I like that.
Gorgeous AU55....such nice detail.
What held her back.....the scratches in the fields?
The mysterious black line to the right of Liberty's elbow?
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Gorgeous AU55....such nice detail.
What held her back.....the scratches in the fields?
The mysterious black line to the right of Liberty's elbow? >>
General beat-upedness and dip equal a net graded slider. Looks UNC to these eyes if it was a Morgan.
bob
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>Ok, I'll bite. Why is this considered an EDS? (Do not count the PL-ness, because that is not a definitive indicator of EDS.) >>
There is no crack at all along the top of TRADE (which is very large on most examples I have seen) and the crack from Star 2 along with crack above STATES are both very light, and have not progressed very far.
Here is a link to the max TrueView so you can see the cracks I am describing: Link
What I'm seeing suggests a die state that is approximately MDS due to the shallowness of some of the obverse and reverse devices caused by the re-polishing of the dies. It's not at terminal DS, and doesn't seem quite at LDS either.
If this were EDS, I'd expect the peripheral devices to have more relief.
Thoughts?
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
As for EVP's question of EDS vs MDS vs LDS... something I've always pondered about the trade dollar series is how you can find a variety that is really tough, yet there are die cracks on most known examples. One might assume that scarcity is caused by very few being made, and if very few are made then there shouldn't be die cracks. I've come up with a few theories such as many could have been melted or maybe the dies cracked very early in the run which greatly shortened the life of the dies. Interested to hear other theories about why this is.
If you accept my comment about the shallowness of the devices, then the key is to find an EDS specimen with these characteristics simultaneously: not PL and sharp devices.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>RO's coin is an earlier DS than the OP's coin. Look at the devices: sharper, and with more relief. >>
EVP,
You may very well be correct. Honestly I am making my assumptions based on the limited number of Large S pieces I have seen so far, all of which do have a rather prominent die crack across the top of TRADE which does not exist on my recently acquired coin. I admittedly know very little about die states, and would defer to others' opinions on the matter. I would have always assumed that die cracks only progress linearly, like time does, and never decreases in prominence. I would be very surprised if RO's coin is an earlier die state than my coin is, simply based on die cracks.
@RO, There is no die crack across the top of TRADE on my example that I can tell.
I may be very wrong about my assumptions...just throwing that out there as well
Erik
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<< <i>RO's coin is an earlier DS than the OP's coin. Look at the devices: sharper, and with more relief. >>
EVP,
You may very well be correct. Honestly I am making my assumptions based on the limited number of Large S pieces I have seen so far, all of which do have a rather prominent die crack across the top of TRADE which does not exist on my recently acquired coin. I admittedly know very little about die states, and would defer to others' opinions on the matter. I would have always assumed that die cracks only progress linearly, like time does, and never decreases in prominence. I would be very surprised if RO's coin is an earlier die state than my coin is, simply based on die cracks.
@RO, There is no die crack across the top of TRADE on my example that I can tell. >>
Stealer,
I have had collectors tell me that they do not see any die cracks, in fact a fellow member is writing an article just as we speak about just this fact. Depending on the magnification you are using, and the angle and the surfaces it may be hard to pick up but I believe I see the die crack in question on your piece, it helps to know exactly where to look and I have put your coin side by side with mine inorder to see the dc's. I definitely see the die crack at S2 and above STATES so imho that would also mean the die crack above TRADE should be there. Figuring this out from photos is always problematic, and you have the coin in hand, but I have had this disagreement numerous times with fellow collectors so nothing surprising here. I really don't care whose is earlier or later but am just opining that yours seems very close to mine. >>
RO,
In my earlier response to EVP I did note that there was a crack along the star s2 and STATES - those are key diagnostics for this variety. I'm not sure why the existence of a die crack on S2 and STATES necessitates a crack along TRADE as well...
I will let you know what if any crack exists along TRADE when I get it in hand again.
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<< <i>RO's coin is an earlier DS than the OP's coin. Look at the devices: sharper, and with more relief. >>
EVP,
You may very well be correct. Honestly I am making my assumptions based on the limited number of Large S pieces I have seen so far, all of which do have a rather prominent die crack across the top of TRADE which does not exist on my recently acquired coin. I admittedly know very little about die states, and would defer to others' opinions on the matter. I would have always assumed that die cracks only progress linearly, like time does, and never decreases in prominence. I would be very surprised if RO's coin is an earlier die state than my coin is, simply based on die cracks.
@RO, There is no die crack across the top of TRADE on my example that I can tell. >>
Stealer,
I have had collectors tell me that they do not see any die cracks, in fact a fellow member is writing an article just as we speak about just this fact. Depending on the magnification you are using, and the angle and the surfaces it may be hard to pick up but I believe I see the die crack in question on your piece, it helps to know exactly where to look and I have put your coin side by side with mine inorder to see the dc's. I definitely see the die crack at S2 and above STATES so imho that would also mean the die crack above TRADE should be there. Figuring this out from photos is always problematic, and you have the coin in hand, but I have had this disagreement numerous times with fellow collectors so nothing surprising here. I really don't care whose is earlier or later but am just opining that yours seems very close to mine. >>
RO,
In my earlier response to EVP I did note that there was a crack along the star s2 and STATES - those are key diagnostics for this variety. I'm not sure why the existence of a die crack on S2 and STATES necessitates a crack along TRADE as well...
I will let you know what if any crack exists along TRADE when I get it in hand again. >>
I am now lost, the dc's at S2 and STATES are key diagnostics for the variety but at TRADE it isn't? I would think a veds would have no die cracks anywhere just as the vlds would have heavy die cracks at minimum in those 3 areas. Can the veds have just those two die cracks, certainly. Can the dc at TRADE develop later, certainly. But I have never heard that the diagnostic for this variety was a die crack at S@ and at STATES only, where did you get that, I am interested to know? IMHO the diagnostic for this variety is the type II obv /type II reverse w/ Large S. >>
Realone,
Certainly the most obvious diagnostic is the Large S - after all, that is the name of the variety. Surely you were being facetious in saying that. When trying to determine a genuine coin, the diagnostics are the cracks on the S2 star and above STATES, which I heard directly from Joe.
As for DS not mattering, I disagree if for no other reason than that knowledge matters and one never knows how that knowledge can be used in the future.
For example, there is a recent new ED discovery: BB-257, based on a new obverse die (1803 Lg 3) paired with a known reverse die. (There is a thread about this ATS.) Where this new die marriage fit into the emission sequence was a topic of debate, with DS analysis being a sub-topic for discussion.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>I hope you are enjoying this dialogue because this type of discussion is what numismatics is all about, or if not then my life is REALLY boring
I guess my life is really boring too.
And, yes, this is what numismatics is all about.
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Thanks for the clean debate guys. All I can say is I knew less about die states than I thought I did!
Edit: perhaps another topic to feed the good vibes so far: OriginalDan made the remark that the coin had planchet flaws on the reverse like a DMPL Morgan does. Note the planchet has a lot of missing pieces around DOLLAR on the reverse in the general area. I don't do DMPL Morgan's, so I'd be interested in hearing your guys' thoughts.
<< <i>OriginalDan made the remark that the coin had planchet flaws on the reverse like a DMPL Morgan does. Note the planchet has a lot of missing pieces around DOLLAR on the reverse in the general area. I don't do DMPL Morgan's, so I'd be interested in hearing your guys' thoughts. >>
Yes this was one of the most interesting attributes of this coin. I've never seen it before on a trade dollar but it definitely reminded me of a DMPL Morgan. You can see it all around 900 FINE, DOLLAR and the eagles right (facing) wing. It's almost like little bits of silver stuck to the die or chipped off soon after striking leaving small frosty portions scattered within the mirrored surface. Pretty cool to check out on a trade dollar.
Observations:
- crack by S2 is extremely faint, hairline-esque
- crack on STATES is there but faint
- crack between AM in AMERICA is almost nonexistent
- crack above TRADE is nonexistent, although it almost looks as if it is beginning to form off the top right of A
TRADE
S2
STATES/AM
And some complimentary in-hand images with proper WB. All I can say is OriginalDan wasn't kidding about the planchet pockmarks on the reverse.
<< <i>I'll have to pull my examples out of the SDB and see if I see any cracks although they are lower grade >>
That would be very good information to know, thanks John.
Someone can save me some time by anticipating why I think it's possible, and saying if those conditions are met. (Not trying to be lazy, but work and having to go to the NYINC show Wednesday will kill my time.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
<< <i>I'll have to re-read this thread more carefully when I have time, but my initial reaction is that a coin with faint die cracks is unlikely to be EDS. UNLIKELY, but certainly possible.
Someone can save me some time by anticipating why I think it's possible, and saying if those conditions are met. (Not trying to be lazy, but work and having to go to the NYINC show Wednesday will kill my time.)
EVP >>
EVP,
I think you have caught me correctly on my semantics. What I meant to say through the excitement was an earlier strike (based on die cracks and the lack thereof) and not necessarily an earlier die state. Based on my limited experience with this variety, it would appear at first to me that it is quite an early strike for this variety.
A possibility I see is if the reverse die was used to strike a 1/2 Large S in-between production of the 2/2 Large S's which is interesting but impossible based on the lack of cracks above STATES for the 1/2 Large S. Perhaps you are thinking of other possibilities?
<< <i>Keoj told me years ago the that the type 1/2 and 2/2 large S rev dies are different dies based on completely different cracks. I looked it over and agreed with him but that was years ago. I wonder if he still believes that after further research. >>
I don't know, I haven't had time to look at a large blowup image of the 1/2 Large S yet. I'll look into that at some point.