Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins?
MrEureka
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Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think?
Andy Lustig
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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The idea of a new governmental department, or even increased staffing in an existing department, to enforce such a law and to regulate the hobby is to be avoided.
The hobby should self regulate and use a moral compass to guide it. If one in the hobby lacks a moral compass, he or she should get one ASAP or get out of the hobby. The same should apply in other areas of human endeavor.
I must assume that this is all in jest. Government regulation of our hobby? Don't we have enough regulation in everything else.
NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!
RIP "BEAR"
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
Andy.......stop drinking the Sterno.........
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
Nope.
Nearly impossible to enforce and we already have too many laws which are currently being ignored.
The name is LEE!
Latin American Collection
Coin Rarities Online
<< <i>No. I think an executive order would be the way to go. >>
Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.
<< <i>Yes, and it shall from this day forward be called "Andy's Law". >>
If a dealer has egregiously overgraded coins at a show, everyone's phone will be alerted with an Andy Alert.
The grades really don't matter.....it's the price you pay that determines whether you got a fair deal or not. Even without numeric grades we could still go back to the descriptive grading system from decades past:
Good, Very good, Fine, Very Fine, Extra Fine, Almost Uncirculated, Unc, Choice Unc, Gem Unc, Superb Gem Unc, Monster Gem Unc, Moon Money Monster Gem Unc, Moon Money Mega Monster Gem Unc., Perfect Gem Unc.
Could their be abuse with such a descriptive system? The 1970's CDN was basically made up of descriptive grades.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>Interesting how when you try to help those less capable of protecting themselves against fraud, those that are more capable deride the effort. >>
I assume you are aware that eBay enacted just such a policy many years ago, and I suppose
overall it's been a "good thing" (tm). Trying to enforce the policy over the entire coin market
seems rather unrealistic, however.
I tend to believe that consumer (self-) education is ultimately the only true protection.
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
Definitely. Another law also needs to be put in place to stop overpricing coins, especially the coins that interest me.
Tyler
Coins should be graded using symbols of the periodic table.
<< <i>An actual law set by the Government? You can't be serious. >>
<< <i>Interesting how when you try to help those less capable of protecting themselves against fraud, those that are more capable deride the effort. >>
There will never be a numismatic Esperanto. If so, and especially if it were accurate, it would be all the more ignored. However, every ANA member will get a secret decoder ring for mixed characters from alphabets such as Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, kanji, Thai, Sanskrit, and pre-Hittite cuneiform as numerical substitutions. You could give them away, postage paid, on a late night infomercial and not get another 30,000 takers. Same for RedBooks.
But isn't it a cornerstone of capitalism that the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage based on their enlightened acceptance of a primal Darwinian imperative? You only get to eat what you kill.
People understood and accepted this truism before the Industrial Age. Now, on public occasions at least, we are sometimes seemingly somewhat civilized. . . .
I've heard it rumored that when they have a partners' meeting at Goldman Sachs they sing the company song; a rousing lip-synch of Warren Zevon's "Werewolves of London". . . . .
Afterward, they feast . . . . . .
And there's already a law.
<< <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>
I think the law should prevent the use of numerical grading for any coin or other numismatic item which has, at any time, been raw.
Ed. S.
(EJS)
<< <i>But isn't it a cornerstone of capitalism that the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage based on their enlightened acceptance of a primal Darwinian imperative? You only get to eat what you kill.
People understood and accepted this truism before the Industrial Age. Now, on public occasions at least, we are sometimes seemingly somewhat civilized. . . . >>
The argument could be advanced that "the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage"
regardless of the prevailing economic and political systems. How they rationalize (or not) the exploitation of same may
depend on the philosophical underpinnings of those systems.
As I understand it, the imbalance of wealth in Ukraine is much greater than in the good ole USA.
<< <i>It already the RULE of law on ebay, for a long time now. >>
That's what I was thinking. Is something more than eBay's law necessary?
There are only two grades anyway: "It belongs in my collection" and "it doesn't belong in my collection."
http://www.shieldnickels.net
<< <i>Everything is BU when coin cleaner comes in gallon form
>>
Look at them jug's......
Hoard the keys.
<< <i>Interesting how when you try to help those less capable of protecting themselves against fraud, those that are more capable deride the effort. >>
Wait a minute, were you serious?
Because if you were, I really have no idea why the use of numeric grades is more conducive to fraud than handwritten, flowery adjectival grading (or any other type).
I was at a local show over the weekend looking at a case filled with coins in 2x2's with another dealer when we both joked that it was like being at a coin show in the 1970's at which time every single coin (ranging in grade from AU to unc, cleaned and otherwise) would have been labeled "Gem BU".
Coin Rarities Online
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
A law that is unenforceable will not benefit the masses.
You might limit eBay for instance, but that is merely a drop in the ocean in terms of the coin uinverse.
Now a law that CAN be enforced is making it illegal to sell raw coins to anyone who is not an accredited collector or dealer (and we would need some kind of an accredditation guideline and/or system to support this).
Kind of like raising $$ for a company...you must raise it from accredited investors or face big risks.
In fact the ANA can bestow accreditation status as a possible additional source of revenue...
<< <i>
<< <i>But isn't it a cornerstone of capitalism that the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage based on their enlightened acceptance of a primal Darwinian imperative? You only get to eat what you kill.
People understood and accepted this truism before the Industrial Age. Now, on public occasions at least, we are sometimes seemingly somewhat civilized. . . . >>
The argument could be advanced that "the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage"
regardless of the prevailing economic and political systems. How they rationalize (or not) the exploitation of same may
depend on the philosophical underpinnings of those systems.
As I understand it, the imbalance of wealth in Ukraine is much greater than in the good ole USA. >>
I think the above point is beyond well-made; it is critical.
As has been said" Under capitalism, one man exploits another. Under socialism, it is the opposite"
<< <i>Of course there should be.
Coins should be graded using symbols of the periodic table. >>
All the talk of a 100 point grading scale and now we're into the trans-uranics? I always thought the New Math was subversive. Someone is chipping away at our freedoms.
Force people to potentially spend money to something that people claim is subjective
People can still self slab or use sham tpg
If slab is not used, letter grades can still be inflated.
<< <i>No. I think an executive order would be the way to go. >>
I could go there.......but I won't.
I knew it would happen.
there is so much to say for this thread, i scarcely know where to start. so i'll just make a couple comments and move on because while i find the idea in practicality to be absurd, i don't find the idea of discussing absurd (imo) ideas to be absurd mostly because of that quote that a forum member has in their sig line, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle~
when i read the title, the first thing i thought of was, wow, i wonder if the person that started the thread is a lobbyist for the TPGs. ><
<< <i>Interesting how when you try to help those less capable of protecting themselves against fraud, those that are more capable deride the effort. >>
the above comment is awfully presumptuous in that just because there is a law preventing someone form marking a non-TPG coin holder plastic, cardboard or otherwise, that a person can't be "ripped." kind of like, just because there are top-tier TPGs, people can't buy raw or slabbed counterfeits. - of course the logic is just because it isn't easy, doesn't mean one shouldn't try. (just not in this case lol) so the real question to this, and possibly all laws, is "do we want to stop someone from doing something (which is ridiculous for virtually every reason) or just punish someone when they don't obey?"
i've been at MANY coin shows/shops where customers solicit an "opinion" as to the grade of item(s). so would it be illegal to mark the items or give an opinion outside of an appraisal?
i'd like to know specifically what led the op to ask such a question publicly.
just to start an lengthy thread. legitimately thought it was worth discussing. etc
also, you state "numerical". so then it would be ok to still use F/VF/AU etc? just so long as there aren't any numbers?
i did not read this thread in its entirety and my insignificant answer to the inquiry is unequivocally "h*#^@ no!" but i have no problem with it being discussed. every rock should be turned over in the hope for molding a better future. i don't have any tattoos but if i get one i hope to remember to make it the following, "question everything."
<< <i>Yes, and it shall from this day forward be called "Andy's Law". >>
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<--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -
We are paying for our education and the circle of trust gets smaller and smaller, the older we get.
I do understand Ebay's intolerance of the numeric system due to the ABUSES of key word spamming. Legitimacy has it's roots in the satisfaction of the customer and any resolutions to make him WHOLE , if he were screwed after the fact…. by a seller. But there is no "screwing" when using numbers. Anyone can be off a grade or two. That's acceptable in this "hobby" with raw coins. A meeting of the minds is typically two guys mulling over the grade and coming to a "happy medium". A price that satisfies both buyer and seller.
A grade, on the other hand just ensures an ignorant public that those guys know what they're doing naked. There are good deals and great buys. A big difference there.
The Early American Coppers Club uses the Sheldon grading system, and it started with Dr. Sheldon's books. They seem apply it more consistently with raw coins than the grading services do. It would absurd to deny that group the use of a system that was invented and originally intended for their area of the market.