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Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins?

MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think?
Andy Lustig

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
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Comments

  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No. I think an executive order would be the way to go.
  • coin22lovercoin22lover Posts: 3,452 ✭✭✭
    An actual law set by the Government? You can't be serious.
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It already the RULE of law on ebay, for a long time now.
  • BryceMBryceM Posts: 11,722 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't we already have enough laws?
  • SanctionIISanctionII Posts: 11,660 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Please no.

    The idea of a new governmental department, or even increased staffing in an existing department, to enforce such a law and to regulate the hobby is to be avoided.

    The hobby should self regulate and use a moral compass to guide it. If one in the hobby lacks a moral compass, he or she should get one ASAP or get out of the hobby. The same should apply in other areas of human endeavor.
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,692 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It sounds ridiculous to me.
    LCoopie = Les
  • MrHalfDimeMrHalfDime Posts: 3,440 ✭✭✭✭
    "Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins?"

    I must assume that this is all in jest. Government regulation of our hobby? Don't we have enough regulation in everything else.
    They that can give up essential Liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither Liberty nor safety. Benjamin Franklin
  • MarkInDavisMarkInDavis Posts: 1,697 ✭✭✭✭
    You can't be serious.
    image Respectfully, Mark
  • topstuftopstuf Posts: 14,803 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We could dip our large cents in Obama-CARE!!!!!

    image
  • pennyanniepennyannie Posts: 3,929 ✭✭✭
    I am against any new laws period. If you pass a law you are going to get idiots to enforce it.
    Mark
    NGC registry V-Nickel proof #6!!!!
    working on proof shield nickels # 8 with a bullet!!!!

    RIP "BEAR"
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>



    Andy.......stop drinking the Sterno.........
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>

    Nope.

    Nearly impossible to enforce and we already have too many laws which are currently being ignored.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • PatchesPatches Posts: 1,700 ✭✭✭
    absurd idea inviting the Government in
  • LindeDadLindeDad Posts: 18,766 ✭✭✭✭✭
    How could a grading firm apply grades then?
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,282 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Naw - AU 54 should be permitted if the coin calls for it. image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko.
  • BoosibriBoosibri Posts: 11,841 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Everything is BU when coin cleaner comes in gallon form
    image
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Check with Minnesota regulators.
  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,638 ✭✭✭✭
    Yes, and it shall from this day forward be called "Andy's Law".
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wouldn't that put the TPGs out of business? image
  • ms70ms70 Posts: 13,946 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>No. I think an executive order would be the way to go. >>



    image

    Great transactions with oih82w8, JasonGaming, Moose1913.

  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 21,881 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Yes, and it shall from this day forward be called "Andy's Law". >>

    If a dealer has egregiously overgraded coins at a show, everyone's phone will be alerted with an Andy Alert.
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • roadrunnerroadrunner Posts: 28,303 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Besides numeric grades being banned, I think numeric prices should be as well. This will level the playing field. image


    The grades really don't matter.....it's the price you pay that determines whether you got a fair deal or not. Even without numeric grades we could still go back to the descriptive grading system from decades past:

    Good, Very good, Fine, Very Fine, Extra Fine, Almost Uncirculated, Unc, Choice Unc, Gem Unc, Superb Gem Unc, Monster Gem Unc, Moon Money Monster Gem Unc, Moon Money Mega Monster Gem Unc., Perfect Gem Unc.

    Could their be abuse with such a descriptive system? The 1970's CDN was basically made up of descriptive grades.
    Barbarous Relic No More, LSCC -GoldSeek--shadow stats--SafeHaven--321gold
  • 410a410a Posts: 1,325
    No..............think of something else to twist minds.image
  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,892 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting how when you try to help those less capable of protecting themselves against fraud, those that are more capable deride the effort.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting concept... more to follow

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Interesting how when you try to help those less capable of protecting themselves against fraud, those that are more capable deride the effort. >>


    I assume you are aware that eBay enacted just such a policy many years ago, and I suppose
    overall it's been a "good thing" (tm). Trying to enforce the policy over the entire coin market
    seems rather unrealistic, however.

    I tend to believe that consumer (self-) education is ultimately the only true protection.
  • ARCOARCO Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>

    Definitely. Another law also needs to be put in place to stop overpricing coins, especially the coins that interest me.

    Tyler
  • TopographicOceansTopographicOceans Posts: 6,535 ✭✭✭✭
    Of course there should be.
    Coins should be graded using symbols of the periodic table.
  • AMRCAMRC Posts: 4,266 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>An actual law set by the Government? You can't be serious. >>



    image
    MLAeBayNumismatics: "The greatest hobby in the world!"
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Interesting how when you try to help those less capable of protecting themselves against fraud, those that are more capable deride the effort. >>



    There will never be a numismatic Esperanto. If so, and especially if it were accurate, it would be all the more ignored. However, every ANA member will get a secret decoder ring for mixed characters from alphabets such as Cyrillic, Hebrew, Arabic, kanji, Thai, Sanskrit, and pre-Hittite cuneiform as numerical substitutions. You could give them away, postage paid, on a late night infomercial and not get another 30,000 takers. Same for RedBooks.

    But isn't it a cornerstone of capitalism that the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage based on their enlightened acceptance of a primal Darwinian imperative? You only get to eat what you kill.

    People understood and accepted this truism before the Industrial Age. Now, on public occasions at least, we are sometimes seemingly somewhat civilized. . . . image

    I've heard it rumored that when they have a partners' meeting at Goldman Sachs they sing the company song; a rousing lip-synch of Warren Zevon's "Werewolves of London". . . . . image

    Afterward, they feast . . . . . . image

    And there's already a law.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • SwampboySwampboy Posts: 12,876 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wasn't such a law enacted in the Republic of eBay?
  • Aegis3Aegis3 Posts: 2,896 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Should a law be enacted preventing the use of numeric grades for raw coins? It might help prevent fraud. What do you think? >>



    I think the law should prevent the use of numerical grading for any coin or other numismatic item which has, at any time, been raw.
    --

    Ed. S.

    (EJS)
  • Coin FinderCoin Finder Posts: 6,944 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think this would be difficult to enforce, but mainly the fraudsters would find another way to fraud people. I am not a coin historian but grades and then numerical grading of raw coins may have helped in halting fraud early on in numismatic history. As we all know it soon went the other way when "BU" was used on "XF" coins by some in the business.
  • CoinJunkieCoinJunkie Posts: 8,772 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>But isn't it a cornerstone of capitalism that the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage based on their enlightened acceptance of a primal Darwinian imperative? You only get to eat what you kill.

    People understood and accepted this truism before the Industrial Age. Now, on public occasions at least, we are sometimes seemingly somewhat civilized. . . . image >>


    The argument could be advanced that "the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage"
    regardless of the prevailing economic and political systems. How they rationalize (or not) the exploitation of same may
    depend on the philosophical underpinnings of those systems.

    As I understand it, the imbalance of wealth in Ukraine is much greater than in the good ole USA.
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It already the RULE of law on ebay, for a long time now. >>



    That's what I was thinking. Is something more than eBay's law necessary?
  • howardshowards Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭
    Who needs numbers?

    There are only two grades anyway: "It belongs in my collection" and "it doesn't belong in my collection."
  • Type2Type2 Posts: 13,985 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Everything is BU when coin cleaner comes in gallon form
    image >>

    Look at them jug's...... image


    Hoard the keys.
  • CoinRaritiesOnlineCoinRaritiesOnline Posts: 3,638 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Interesting how when you try to help those less capable of protecting themselves against fraud, those that are more capable deride the effort. >>



    Wait a minute, were you serious?

    Because if you were, I really have no idea why the use of numeric grades is more conducive to fraud than handwritten, flowery adjectival grading (or any other type).

    I was at a local show over the weekend looking at a case filled with coins in 2x2's with another dealer when we both joked that it was like being at a coin show in the 1970's at which time every single coin (ranging in grade from AU to unc, cleaned and otherwise) would have been labeled "Gem BU".
  • DHeathDHeath Posts: 8,472 ✭✭✭
    I think we could reduce the use of adjectives and come up with something like this - "I grade this one about $300". That seems to be the only seller description that has any meaning.
    Developing theory is what we are meant to do as academic researchers
    and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
  • mercurydimeguymercurydimeguy Posts: 4,625 ✭✭✭✭
    Never mind the notion, it's irrelevant, because there is no way to enforce it.

    A law that is unenforceable will not benefit the masses.

    You might limit eBay for instance, but that is merely a drop in the ocean in terms of the coin uinverse.

    Now a law that CAN be enforced is making it illegal to sell raw coins to anyone who is not an accredited collector or dealer (and we would need some kind of an accredditation guideline and/or system to support this).

    Kind of like raising $$ for a company...you must raise it from accredited investors or face big risks.

    In fact the ANA can bestow accreditation status as a possible additional source of revenue...
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>But isn't it a cornerstone of capitalism that the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage based on their enlightened acceptance of a primal Darwinian imperative? You only get to eat what you kill.

    People understood and accepted this truism before the Industrial Age. Now, on public occasions at least, we are sometimes seemingly somewhat civilized. . . . image >>


    The argument could be advanced that "the smart, the capable, the meritorious and the amoral have a natural advantage"
    regardless of the prevailing economic and political systems. How they rationalize (or not) the exploitation of same may
    depend on the philosophical underpinnings of those systems.


    As I understand it, the imbalance of wealth in Ukraine is much greater than in the good ole USA. >>



    I think the above point is beyond well-made; it is critical.

    As has been said" Under capitalism, one man exploits another. Under socialism, it is the opposite"
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • ColonelJessupColonelJessup Posts: 6,442 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Of course there should be.
    Coins should be graded using symbols of the periodic table. >>



    All the talk of a 100 point grading scale and now we're into the trans-uranics? I always thought the New Math was subversive. Someone is chipping away at our freedoms.
    "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." - Geo. Orwell
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    People continue to try their hand at corralling the people's ability to co-exist without interference and they try to use LAWYERS to get their way. In some states and venues they've managed to dictate. Law is to protect, not enslave. When the latter happens, then we, as a people, must weed out those who would advocate trampling more on the rights of those who can legitimately see enough to grade and count to 67. Beyond that it's anybody's guess.
  • I think numerical grades should indeed be outlawed, since they're use is subject to abuse. Along the same lines, I think people also shouldn't be allowed to talk or communicate when transacting business at coin shows, since it might prevent fraud.
    www.sullivannumismatics.com Dealer in Mint Error Coins.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,136 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Impossible to pass

    Force people to potentially spend money to something that people claim is subjective
    People can still self slab or use sham tpg
    If slab is not used, letter grades can still be inflated.



    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions


  • << <i>No. I think an executive order would be the way to go. >>




    imageimage
    I was ‘COINB0Y' with 4812 posts and ‘Expert Collector’ ranking (Joined in 2006).
  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Force people to potentially spend money to something that people claim is subjective

    I could go there.......but I won't.
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    there is so much to say for this thread, i scarcely know where to start. so i'll just make a couple comments and move on because while i find the idea in practicality to be absurd, i don't find the idea of discussing absurd (imo) ideas to be absurd mostly because of that quote that a forum member has in their sig line, "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it." ~Aristotle~ image

    when i read the title, the first thing i thought of was, wow, i wonder if the person that started the thread is a lobbyist for the TPGs. ><



    << <i>Interesting how when you try to help those less capable of protecting themselves against fraud, those that are more capable deride the effort. >>



    the above comment is awfully presumptuous in that just because there is a law preventing someone form marking a non-TPG coin holder plastic, cardboard or otherwise, that a person can't be "ripped." kind of like, just because there are top-tier TPGs, people can't buy raw or slabbed counterfeits. image - of course the logic is just because it isn't easy, doesn't mean one shouldn't try. (just not in this case lol) so the real question to this, and possibly all laws, is "do we want to stop someone from doing something (which is ridiculous for virtually every reason) or just punish someone when they don't obey?"

    i've been at MANY coin shows/shops where customers solicit an "opinion" as to the grade of item(s). so would it be illegal to mark the items or give an opinion outside of an appraisal?

    i'd like to know specifically what led the op to ask such a question publicly.

    just to start an lengthy thread. legitimately thought it was worth discussing. etc

    also, you state "numerical". so then it would be ok to still use F/VF/AU etc? just so long as there aren't any numbers?

    i did not read this thread in its entirety and my insignificant answer to the inquiry is unequivocally "h*#^@ no!" but i have no problem with it being discussed. every rock should be turned over in the hope for molding a better future. i don't have any tattoos but if i get one i hope to remember to make it the following, "question everything."



    << <i>Yes, and it shall from this day forward be called "Andy's Law". >>

    image
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,796 ✭✭✭✭✭
    P.S. As to the "discussion" and the 100 point grading scale, my opinion was always thought of as "decimal" grading. PCGS' response was a +, NGC' application a *. JA's solution : ask TDN or anyone else. No law was necessary. No codes violated. Strictly a business (albeit ultra brilliant), but another business "for profit". And who would want to restrict business ?
    We are paying for our education and the circle of trust gets smaller and smaller, the older we get.

    I do understand Ebay's intolerance of the numeric system due to the ABUSES of key word spamming. Legitimacy has it's roots in the satisfaction of the customer and any resolutions to make him WHOLE , if he were screwed after the fact…. by a seller. But there is no "screwing" when using numbers. Anyone can be off a grade or two. That's acceptable in this "hobby" with raw coins. A meeting of the minds is typically two guys mulling over the grade and coming to a "happy medium". A price that satisfies both buyer and seller.
    A grade, on the other hand just ensures an ignorant public that those guys know what they're doing naked. There are good deals and great buys. A big difference there.
  • BillJonesBillJones Posts: 33,427 ✭✭✭✭✭
    NO!!!!!

    The Early American Coppers Club uses the Sheldon grading system, and it started with Dr. Sheldon's books. They seem apply it more consistently with raw coins than the grading services do. It would absurd to deny that group the use of a system that was invented and originally intended for their area of the market.
    Retired dealer and avid collector of U.S. type coins, 19th century presidential campaign medalets and selected medals. In recent years I have been working on a set of British coins - at least one coin from each king or queen who issued pieces that are collectible. I am also collecting at least one coin for each Roman emperor from Julius Caesar to ... ?

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