A fascinating Eutopia SC$.

keets · October 21, 2014 5:36PM

One of the SC$'s that I was initially drawn to when I began collecting these medals was the Bickford Dollar, a bi-metallic from the late 19th Century intended to unify International Monetary systems. A predecessor of those medals came perhaps 10-15 years earlier but doesn't get quite the attention due mainly to its "uncollectible" state brought on by the fact that a mere three examples are reputed to exist(the dies are supposed to have shattered after the third impression). In the time I have been colleting SC$'s I had never seen a Eutopia Dollar offered for sale......................until earlier this year. I recall seeing an AU offered and then this one was on the block with Heritage about two months ago. I had bid on it but didn't press the chase due mainly to the appearance which seems to show a stain or some type of discoloration near the rim on both sides.

Now I'm viewing lots at eBay and up pops this one!! If you look at the NGC insert you'll note that they were back-to-back on a submission and carry an impressive pedigree, that of John J. Ford, Jr. which explains why they were nowhere to be found for so many years. In comparing the pictures of these two medals with the medal pictured in the So-Called Dollar second edition it would appear that they are each different, so unless I am remembering wrongly about the AU I saw offered there are apparently four medals that exist. I find it fascinating that three have appeared for sale in the course of several months.

Can anyone help with a little Numismatic detective work to track down the AU, to find if it really exists or if I had a bout of CRS and am just confused?? Also, any comments are welcome. It's just a very lovely bi-metallic medal with an interesting design and an inspired idea which our current economic state, worldwide, might benefit from re-visiting. Thanks in advance for any help and enjoy.

Al H.

lasvegasteddy · October 21, 2014 5:55PM

wish i could help ya al...but a scant 3...possible 4th struck making total mintage
that sounds like way beyond a needle in a haystack as i assume you tried normal internet options to begin with

what a lil peek into the background of this
not many a thread here even includes an image of a 3 or 4 piece total mintage coin

intricate for the year in design
i wonder if there was any concern that the center gold would be punched out?

interesting piece

keets · October 21, 2014 6:17PM

here's what I think was the "AU" I had seen and this is one I hadn't seen before tonight, from a Stack's sale of a few years ago.

now I have a picture of another(5th) example with the Gold Center reversed.

jonathanb · October 21, 2014 8:50PM

NGC VF-35

There have been at least 6 auction appearances in the last two years, bringing prices from $1400 to $3600.

Treashunt · October 21, 2014 9:35PM

Compare the two dates in the two examples shown.

They appear to be a different die punch.

Or I need new glasses.

keets · October 21, 2014 9:58PM

There have been at least 6 auction appearances

how many were repeat auctions?? if they were unique listings what do you think the extant pop is?? the medal you linked seems to be the lowest graded that I have seen thus far as well as being perhaps the earliest die state: it doesn't look to have the reverse die cracks that all the others show. all have the obverse cracks so the dies must have been too hard and the stress took place with the first strike and got worse till they presumably shattered. I have yet to see one with no cracks.

keets · October 22, 2014 8:55PM

evidently it is only fascinating to me!!

DHeath · October 22, 2014 10:13PM

I like to look and lurk.

brg5658 · October 23, 2014 12:39AM

A couple of them may be duplicated resubmissions, but the NGC populations suggest quite a few more than 3-4. Don't get too hung up on old-wives-tales about dies shattering after 2, 3, 4 impressions...and then decades later probably 10 have been graded by NGC alone, and who knows how many others are out there raw (as many SCD collectors don't do the "slab" thing). Good luck.

keets · October 23, 2014 2:29AM

Don't get too hung up on old-wives-tales about dies shattering after 2, 3, 4 impressions...and then decades later probably 10 have been graded by NGC alone

different perspectives accepted and understood, others here are better informed and able to speak to the notion of "old-wives-tales" than I am. all that aside I don't believe that is the case with the description listed in both catalogues and dating back at least 60+ years. I have never seen any without the cracks(though admittedly I have only seen those pictured in this thread) so it is reasonable to assume what the authors originally stated is fact despite the higher numbers: they most likely made the pronouncement based on only being ably to validate three medals.

I tend to agree with you that some of the medals may be re-grades and that others may be held by collectors raw much like the Ford, Jr. medals were prior to the sale. I am most curious to know why all of sudden these came up for sale, at a time when prices are a little low and interest has sagged. all the same I am happy to see them and the more that come out the better my chances of owning one.

MGLICKER · October 23, 2014 2:35AM

<< evidently it is only fascinating to me!!

>>

I have been a fan of the Bickford for some time. Many popped up on Teletrade a half decade ago. Never bought one though.

I have seen the Eutopia pieces as well. At those prices, I am not quite as fascinated.

keets · October 23, 2014 3:12AM

to be honest, I placed a bid on the last Heritage coin and then paid closer attention to other medals with the presumption that the Eutpoia would go much higher. with Bickford Dollars, I already have a complete collection and I'm in the process of upgrading as they come for sale. they are much easier to locate but in grades higher than MS63-64 can be scarce.

brg5658 · October 23, 2014 3:14AM

<< Don't get too hung up on old-wives-tales about dies shattering after 2, 3, 4 impressions...and then decades later probably 10 have been graded by NGC alone

different perspectives accepted and understood, others here are better informed and able to speak to the notion of "old-wives-tales" than I am. all that aside I don't believe that is the case with the description listed in both catalogues and dating back at least 60+ years. I have never seen any without the cracks(though admittedly I have only seen those pictured in this thread) so it is reasonable to assume what the authors originally stated is fact despite the higher numbers: they most likely made the pronouncement based on only being ably to validate three medals.

I tend to agree with you that some of the medals may be re-grades and that others may be held by collectors raw much like the Ford, Jr. medals were prior to the sale. I am most curious to know why all of sudden these came up for sale, at a time when prices are a little low and interest has sagged. all the same I am happy to see them and the more that come out the better my chances of owning one. >>

I think the Ford "MS64" example for sale by Ernie Latter is very aggressively priced at the opening of $10K. I would be very surprised to see it sell at those levels. Scarce/rare or not, it takes demand to pull a price like that -- and in general (as you mentioned), the SCDs are not in vogue now (nor have they ever really been)...

As an aside, I wish Latter Investments would learn how to take better images of their items. I can usually guess that it's nice, but given the range of stuff they sell I think it would be to their advantage to learn how to take proper images (or outsource it) for their eBay auctions.

brg5658 · October 23, 2014 3:20AM

PS -- you may want to revisit this thread from 4 years ago regarding the piece sold by Bowers & Merena in 2010.

Zoins · October 23, 2014 2:08PM

Nice thread on the Veeder Dollar keets

I wonder if Veeder would feel his dream for Eutopia was achieved with the EU and the Euro?

Baley · October 23, 2014 2:50PM

<< 
now I have a picture of another(5th) example with the Gold Center reversed.

>>

Very interesting that for Cancer, a lobster is pictured instead of a crab

pruebas · October 23, 2014 3:01PM

There are about 10 of these known. I owned 2, Ford owned 3, and there are a few more around.

I just consigned my last example (a nicely-toned MS62) to the Stacks-Bowers January 2015 Americana sale.

The cool thing about my consignment is that the Eutopia Dollar is lotted together with 5 Eutopia "patterns." Its a real cool lot and I hope the new owner enjoys it.

Zoins · October 23, 2014 3:48PM

<< Very interesting that for Cancer, a lobster is pictured instead of a crab >>

That is interesting. The Wikipedia page for Cancer also has a lobster:

Pioneer · October 23, 2014 4:49PM

As a SC$ collector, I just can't see paying $10K for this piece given it's census... $1-2K maybe these days for the PopTop perhaps. To me, things like quality pieces from the 1826 US SemiCentennial or the Taft Dollar command higher prices...

keets · October 23, 2014 7:59PM

I just can't see paying $10K for this piece

I think you'll find that you are not alone with this line of thinking, the owner is "buried" with this one.

TwoSides2aCoin · October 23, 2014 8:31PM

They've got a unique history. They (SC$) never caught on as "mainstream collector pieces", but as "money", but they made plenty because of their history.
That's fascinating to me. How some things RISE in value , despite the times we live in.

brg5658 · October 23, 2014 11:02PM

<< There are about 10 of these known. I owned 2, Ford owned 3, and there are a few more around.

I just consigned my last example (a nicely-toned MS62) to the Stacks-Bowers January 2015 Americana sale.

The cool thing about my consignment is that the Eutopia Dollar is lotted together with 5 Eutopia "patterns." Its a real cool lot and I hope the new owner enjoys it. >>

The problem, as with many "very rare" things -- is that there are about 5 people who want to own one of these. Supply vs. demand...that's how the free market works.

I wish you well on your consigned example...and I wish Ernie well on his sale also...but at $10K, he's about 10 times higher than I would even think about paying for an example...

keets · October 24, 2014 12:39AM

there are about 5 people who want to own one of these

your thinking bodes well for me but hasn't yet proven to be viable.

brg5658 · October 24, 2014 2:07AM

<< there are about 5 people who want to own one of these

your thinking bodes well for me but hasn't yet proven to be viable. >>

I hope you can find a nice one for the $1-$2K they are probably "worth" in the open market.

Way too many other cool things I want to even think about going after one of these.

Zoins · October 24, 2014 1:39PM

Interesting that these pieces don't resemble the pieces in Nicholas Veeder's booklet Cometallism: A Plan for Combining Gold and Silver in Coinage, for Uniting and Blending Their Values in Paper Money, and for Establishing a Composite Single Standard Dollar of Account.

Do the pieces in Veeder's booklet exist and do they have HK numbers?

Can the title be edited to include Veeder's name, Eutopia and the HK number to make this thread easier to find in the future?

keets · October 24, 2014 5:36PM

Can the title be edited to include Veeder's name, Eutopia and the HK number to make this thread easier to find in the future?

yes, it can.

to the point of a lack of interest in these pieces I can only say that perhaps those five collectors are a little more in tune to exactly what the piece is all about. maybe Mssrs. Bickford, Veeder et. al. had a better grasp of what was happening on the World stage then most of us, along with a surprising glimpse into what the future might look like. their present day experiences as they traveled and the soon to transpire struggle between Gold/Silver proponents in our own Country would only seem to validate what they hoped these medals ---Bickford Dollars and Eutopia Dollars --- would bring into the public conscience.

I can say for my own part that almost daily I am referencing the Krause World Coin Catalogue to see what the fineness is of one type of foreign coin or another. my boss and several of our regular customers are pretty good, they know the net of most minor Gold coins but I still need to use the book and our spreadsheet. just for Gold, we probably have 10-15 different types at any given time, currently coins from the U.S., Canada, South Africa, Hungary, Turkey, France, Great Britain, Switzerland and others: the intention of an International Currency makes more sense today than it did 150 years ago to an American businessman traveling in Europe. the World seems a smaller place.

pruebas · October 29, 2014 11:08AM

<< 

<< there are about 5 people who want to own one of these

your thinking bodes well for me but hasn't yet proven to be viable. >>

I hope you can find a nice one for the $1-$2K they are probably "worth" in the open market.

Way too many other cool things I want to even think about going after one of these.

>>

The "open market" just spoke. An ex-Ford MS63 specimen just sold in the SB Baltimore sale for $3750 plus the juice ($4406.25). It was a decent-looking specimen and IMHO probably "worth" that money.

keets · October 29, 2014 11:38AM

I realized early on(thanks for the tip, BTW

) that this one would sell past what I could afford, but the auction had quite a few spectacular Thomas Elder SC$'s. I placed bids that I expected would be too low and ended up winning a nice pair of Brass medals from WWI, both with the "Confederation" motif which is a personal favorite. after this and another coin I'm hoping to win I may have to lay low till after Christmas.

Pioneer · October 30, 2014 3:35PM

There were many SCDs in amazing condition and some very rare pieces. I think prices could have been higher, but I feel fortunate to have purchased some of the collection at a decent price.

A fascinating Eutopia SC$.

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