1908 NM Saint. You vs. NGC

johnny54321 · August 29, 2014 10:54AM

Though I have Saints in my type set, I always wanted a high grade one to keep certified. And this is it. Take a stab at the grade, I'm willing to bet most wont get it right....its a toughie. :-) I tried to keep glare down while maintaining luster(hard to do,especially in a slab)...and I limited it to only one pic of each side due to Stone's distaste of the scroll bar. Have at it!!

crypto79 · August 29, 2014 11:06AM

bolivarshagnasty · August 29, 2014 11:09AM

Nicely struck. NGC 66

illini420 · August 29, 2014 11:11AM

MS65+ was my first thought. Nice coin

410a · August 29, 2014 11:19AM

perhaps a nice 65* with green bean . Looks nice from here.

renman95 · August 29, 2014 12:31PM

NGC 65

OldIndianNutKase · August 29, 2014 12:57PM

Much nicer than my 65. At least a 66+.

OINK

crypto79 · August 29, 2014 1:08PM

<< Much nicer than my 65. At least a 66+.

OINK >>

Agreed but no prongs so no plus

DennisH · August 29, 2014 1:09PM

JGnumismatics · August 29, 2014 1:50PM

I'll take the long shot, ngc 67

HighRelief · August 29, 2014 2:37PM

MS66

johnny54321 · August 29, 2014 2:51PM

Good guesses, but no one has it yet. Many are close, This guess includes and CAC/no CAC and all or lack of designations etc.

WTCG · August 29, 2014 3:34PM

Looks like a nice coin. MS66.

Halfhunter06 · August 29, 2014 3:52PM

MS 65

Type2 · August 29, 2014 3:57PM

I dont see a banging strike but a very nice coin not many hits but i'll be the richard on the board tonight and say MS63/4 But that is just me i cant grade gold.

OldIndianNutKase · August 29, 2014 4:12PM

<< 

<< Much nicer than my 65. At least a 66+.

OINK >>

Agreed but no prongs so no plus >>

You are right about the prongs. So, in that case I will say 66 with a gold bean.

OINK

Boosibri · August 29, 2014 6:04PM

<< 

<< 

<< Much nicer than my 65. At least a 66+.

OINK >>

Agreed but no prongs so no plus >>

You are right about the prongs. So, in that case I will say 66 with a gold bean.

OINK >>

Gold bean on a 66 Saint does not exist. I'm going to say 66 CAC green sticker

kaz · August 29, 2014 11:24PM

66, CAC green bean?

Purfrock · August 30, 2014 12:27AM

MS66

messydesk · August 30, 2014 12:38AM

Very nice! I'll say 66. If it's a 65, the holder deserves a date with a hammer.

TwoSides2aCoin · August 30, 2014 12:46AM

NGC 1
Me 0

Broadstruck · August 30, 2014 12:48AM

Lots of high grades here... How bout a MS63

remumc · August 30, 2014 12:53AM

MS65 Green CAC

csdot · August 30, 2014 1:00AM

A toughie huh? Ok, how about an oddball grade like details, with a green been? Ha!

But seriously, I'd guess NGC Wells Fargo MS66 with CAC green bean.

johnny54321 · August 30, 2014 2:21AM

Some of you are very close, but not quite there. I will give you a hint. It has an uncommon designation. ALso, its not a "details" coin, nor is it listed as being a Well's Fargo.

crypto79 · August 30, 2014 2:26AM

Ok ill play one more, 66 star CAC green, and 99% chance it is a Wells Fargo coin BTW even if not listed on the holder. Kind of like a UNC 57-s is a SS republic

darktone · August 30, 2014 2:31AM

66* cac

johnny54321 · August 30, 2014 2:52AM

crypto and darktone are close enough. It is 66*, no cac. I am guessing the star is for the quality of the luster. It is very thick like molasses, and almost looks like someone painted a thick layer of luster as opposed to being struck that way. I bought it as I am starting an NGC star collection. The 1908 nm is exceptionally rare with the star designation. Out of the 120,000+ that were graded by NGC, almost all being in the MS range; only 33 examples received a star. The 1928 had approximately 50,000 graded, and 162 received a star....and in 1924 almost 90 received a star.

Do you guys think it is worth trying to get a CAC for it at the 66 level? Its beautiful and has very few marks, but I hear that Saints are notoriously hard to get CAC'd especially from NGC.

crypto79 · August 30, 2014 2:57AM

I would think it has a good shot but I would also think it has been attempted already so it didn't. Cross it to a PCGS 66 and it should if it doesn't as a NGC 66

Broadstruck · August 30, 2014 3:42AM

<< I bought it as I am starting an NGC star collection. The 1908 nm is exceptionally rare with the star designation. Out of the 120,000+ that were graded by NGC, almost all being in the MS range; only 33 examples received a star. >>

On the 08 NM the Well's Fargo hoard of nearly 10,000 coins was graded in the early 90's prior to the NGC * program. What does a * really mean... one of the graders liked it, but how do you know if he wasn't working with modern SHQ just the day before? Buy coins that wow you not because they have gimmicks on the slab label... As you will run across some * NGC coins that will make you wonder what take-out did they order for lunch in the grading room the day they thought it was special?

darktone · August 30, 2014 3:55AM

I think it's a Wells Fargo coin too from the color. Or should I call it a Russian hoard coin because where it really came from?

steveben · August 30, 2014 4:02AM

first off, the coin looks great. i think the luster is there and the color is good.

however, those hits on the chest and the leg makes me think it won't cac. there are some impaired rays on the reverse, so, i think it would cross at 64. that opinion's based on the photos only.

darktone · August 30, 2014 4:05AM

<< first off, the coin looks great. i think the luster is there and the color is good.

however, those hits on the chest and the leg makes me think it won't cac. there are some impaired rays on the reverse, so, i think it would cross at 64. that opinion's based on the photos only. >>

I don't think there is any question it would cross to pcgs at 66. Without the tics on the sun and rays I bet it would go 67. Look at the small pic above just posted- it really glows.

johnny54321 · August 30, 2014 4:09AM

<< What does a * really mean... one of the graders liked it >>

ALL of the graders have to agree on a star designation, not just one...which is why it is uncommon. I also bought the coin because I liked it.

What bothers me about the star designation though is how often it is used on modern proof cameos and morgan PL/DPL coins to signify that one side is of stronger cameo distinction than the other. This is a lame use of the designation imho....better just to say obv cam or something like that. I wont buy any coins that use the star designation that way. But for beautifully toned or highly lustrous coins that truly deserve it because of exemplary surfaces for the given grade...I think it is a great use of the designation. I buy coins that I like, but it is nice to know that the graders thought the coin was a standout too, and it gives way for me to build a collection entirely based upon eye appeal....a direction I haven't gone.

Kove · August 30, 2014 4:50AM

<< 

<< I bought it as I am starting an NGC star collection. The 1908 nm is exceptionally rare with the star designation. Out of the 120,000+ that were graded by NGC, almost all being in the MS range; only 33 examples received a star. >>

On the 08 NM the Well's Fargo hoard of nearly 10,000 coins was graded in the early 90's prior to the NGC * program. What does a * really mean... one of the graders liked it, but how do you know if he wasn't working with modern SHQ just the day before? Buy coins that wow you not because they have gimmicks on the slab label... As you will run across some * NGC coins that will make you wonder what take-out did they order for lunch in the grading room the day they thought it was special? >>

A * designation must me unanimous at NGC to get the star.

I think a star set is a worthy goal. NGC coins with stars get a lot of second looks, even from many PCGS fans.

Cougar1978 · August 30, 2014 5:22AM

Wow what a surprise - I had thought MS63 / 64 with the hits in the center and on right knee of MS Liberty. No way a 66 CAC or not.

CAC can green bean all they want, it is not a 66 coin IMO. I would give it a 64 and would never pay more than 64 money for it. The hits on the leg and chest knock it down from 66 and possibly 65......not a 66 coin. I hope you did not pay anywhere near 66 retail for it LOL. I have been in the business since 1990 and my grading opinions are my own from years on the bourse and an ANA grading seminar. I have over 100 Saints in my bankbox investor collection and have been grading these things for decades.

spacehayduke · August 30, 2014 5:40AM

<< 

<< I bought it as I am starting an NGC star collection. The 1908 nm is exceptionally rare with the star designation. Out of the 120,000+ that were graded by NGC, almost all being in the MS range; only 33 examples received a star. >>

On the 08 NM the Well's Fargo hoard of nearly 10,000 coins was graded in the early 90's prior to the NGC * program. What does a * really mean... one of the graders liked it, but how do you know if he wasn't working with modern SHQ just the day before? Buy coins that wow you not because they have gimmicks on the slab label... As you will run across some * NGC coins that will make you wonder what take-out did they order for lunch in the grading room the day they thought it was special? >>

Here indeed in an NGC * coin and I am not wondering why it has a star or what the graders were grading at any other time before or after this one. Nor did JA as it CACed. Come'on Broadie, NGC knows how to grade coins and when to apply the star. They bat just as well at CAC as JA beans pretty much the same proportion of NGC coins as he does PCGS. Word on the street is that CAC is very very hard on Saints so I would think it doesn't matter if it has a star or whose brand of holder surrounds it, either JA likes it for the grade or not.

Best, SH

renman95 · August 30, 2014 6:43AM

<< first off, the coin looks great. i think the luster is there and the color is good.

however, those hits on the chest and the leg makes me think it won't cac. there are some impaired rays on the reverse, so, i think it would cross at 64. that opinion's based on the photos only. >>

Zactly. I thought -65 at most with those visible hits. A beautiful Saint either way.

VanHalen · August 30, 2014 7:09AM

From the images it deserves a Green Bean, whether it got it or wasn't submitted who knows.

johnny54321 · August 30, 2014 12:54PM

<< CAC can green bean all they want, it is not a 66 coin IMO. I would give it a 64 and would never pay more than 64 money for it. The hits on the leg and chest knock it down from 66 and possibly 65......not a 66 coin. I hope you did not pay anywhere near 66 retail for it LOL. I have been in the business since 1990 and my grading opinions are my own from years on the bourse and an ANA grading seminar. I have over 100 Saints in my bankbox investor collection and have been grading these things for decades. >>

Ok, I, for one, am up for paying you 63/64 money for coins that look like this all day long.

roadrunner · August 30, 2014 1:19PM

The standards for stickered gem $20's is unlike any series out there. It's just a different animal. CAC stickers around 5-10% of all MS65/66/67 Saints and $20 Libs. They just routinely do not get stickered unless they have unquestionable monster looking surfaces, fresh luster, good strike, and fewer marks for the grade.

The 1908 NM looks to be a special cause for CAC. Look how many of the >100 1908 MS68 WF coins have been stickered....not a single coin. Look how many MS67's have been stickered out of many more....only 40. Clearly, the 1908 is held to an even higher standard than all other dates, probably because so many come with a mushy looking strike in the centers. CAC has stickered about 450 MS66's out of around 5,000 or so coins available. It's not an easy gig. A couple of marks, an average strike....and monster luster or eye appeal won't save it. This is a nice MS66 coin with very clean surfaces even for the 66 grade. But I think the knee cut alone might keep it from a sticker. It has also a touch of weakness/scuffing on the eagle's breast and leg feathers as well as Liberty's left knee/leg, face and breast area. There's a reason why stickered 66 Saints fetch an extra $1,000 over generic ones....that's because they are basically borderline MS67's. CAC doesn't easily sticker MS66+ coins either. I would imagine the same is true of NGC star coins. Getting a sticker on a MS66 1908 NM is probably 2X as hard as the 1924-1928 Philly dates.

Stuart · August 30, 2014 1:29PM

Johnny,

Your 1908 NM Saint is a beautiful coin! -- Thanks for sharing her with us.

VanHalen · August 30, 2014 1:59PM

<< The standards for stickered gem $20's is unlike any series out there. It's just a different animal. CAC stickers around 5-10% of all MS65/66/67 Saints and $20 Libs. They just routinely do not get stickered unless they have unquestionable monster looking surfaces, fresh luster, good strike, and fewer marks for the grade.

The 1908 NM looks to be a special cause for CAC. Look how many of the >100 1908 MS68 WF coins have been stickered....not a single coin. Look how many MS67's have been stickered out of many more....only 40. Clearly, the 1908 is held to an even higher standard than all other dates, probably because so many come with a mushy looking strike in the centers. CAC has stickered about 450 MS66's out of around 5,000 or so coins available. It's not an easy gig. A couple of marks, an average strike....and monster luster or eye appeal won't save it. This is a nice MS66 coin with very clean surfaces even for the 66 grade. But I think the knee cut alone might keep it from a sticker. It has also a touch of weakness/scuffing on the eagle's breast and leg feathers as well as Liberty's left knee/leg, face and breast area. There's a reason why stickered 66 Saints fetch an extra $1,000 over generic ones....that's because they are basically borderline MS67's. CAC doesn't easily sticker MS66+ coins either. I would imagine the same is true of NGC star coins. Getting a sticker on a MS66 1908 NM is probably 2X as hard as the 1924-1928 Philly dates. >>

Roadrunner knows his G$20 pieces, no doubt. Yes it is tough to get a CAC sticker on gem Saints and yes, a NM may be even tougher. Bottom line is that coin looks like a solid 66 in the images; If it looks as good in-hand then it should sticker because it's at least a B coin for the grade. As noted however, as a 1908 NM in 66, it must be an A coin for the grade to sticker. Essentially it would need to be a 66+ to sticker.

spacehayduke · August 30, 2014 9:15PM

<< The standards for stickered gem $20's is unlike any series out there. It's just a different animal. CAC stickers around 5-10% of all MS65/66/67 Saints and $20 Libs. They just routinely do not get stickered unless they have unquestionable monster looking surfaces, fresh luster, good strike, and fewer marks for the grade.

The 1908 NM looks to be a special cause for CAC. Look how many of the >100 1908 MS68 WF coins have been stickered....not a single coin. Look how many MS67's have been stickered out of many more....only 40. Clearly, the 1908 is held to an even higher standard than all other dates, probably because so many come with a mushy looking strike in the centers. CAC has stickered about 450 MS66's out of around 5,000 or so coins available. It's not an easy gig. A couple of marks, an average strike....and monster luster or eye appeal won't save it. This is a nice MS66 coin with very clean surfaces even for the 66 grade. But I think the knee cut alone might keep it from a sticker. It has also a touch of weakness/scuffing on the eagle's breast and leg feathers as well as Liberty's left knee/leg, face and breast area. There's a reason why stickered 66 Saints fetch an extra $1,000 over generic ones....that's because they are basically borderline MS67's. CAC doesn't easily sticker MS66+ coins either. I would imagine the same is true of NGC star coins. Getting a sticker on a MS66 1908 NM is probably 2X as hard as the 1924-1928 Philly dates. >>

And, if CAC stickers a + or * coin, it doesn't mean they agree with the + or the * for either TPG. It means they think it is an A or B coin for the grade. Not only are they hard on $20 pieces, but word on the street is that they are perhaps just as hard on seated liberty coins.

Best, SH

johnny54321 · August 31, 2014 1:23AM

Thanks for the comments and compliments all. I tend to agree with what has been said. I believe my coin does have amazing surfaces for the grade, however, the hit on the knee as pointed out would probably preclude a CAC sticker if they are looking for perfection on an MS66....given that CAC is so hard on these. NGC probably gave it a star since the surfaces are out of this world, but held to a 66 technical grade because of the hit. It makes sense to me now.

Oxenham · August 31, 2014 2:15AM

From the images this coin looks to be accurately graded, and very attractive. 1908 No Mottos rarely have this gleaming lustre. CAC is tough on this coin, especially in NGC holders, but I think its worth a shot. A 66 is not a perfect coin and there is an allowance for a few marks here and there.

csdot · August 31, 2014 3:09AM

<< I would think it has a good shot but I would also think it has been attempted already so it didn't. Cross it to a PCGS 66 and it should if it doesn't as a NGC 66

>>

I buy my coins already graded, so I do not have experience submitting coins to CAC. Is it true that CAC is more likely to bean a coin because it is in a PCGS holder rather than a NGC holder as suggested, or is that just based on observation of the market? If it is true, what is the reason?

csdot · August 31, 2014 3:17AM

<< From the images this coin looks to be accurately graded, and very attractive. 1908 No Mottos rarely have this gleaming lustre. CAC is tough on this coin, especially in NGC holders, but I think its worth a shot. A 66 is not a perfect coin and there is an allowance for a few marks here and there. >>

I posted my other comment before I saw this post. Sounds like it is believed to be a well known fact that CAC does not sticker NGC graded coins at the same rate as PCGS graded coins. Any thoughts as to why, especially with a coin like this one where most here guessed the correct grade? Assuming a coin is properly graded (and assuming an even spread across the spectrum between coins that are 66.1 to 66.9), seems the two companies should have the same shot at a bean, absent an inherent prejudice in favor of one company over the other.

Boosibri · August 31, 2014 3:32AM

<< 

<< From the images this coin looks to be accurately graded, and very attractive. 1908 No Mottos rarely have this gleaming lustre. CAC is tough on this coin, especially in NGC holders, but I think its worth a shot. A 66 is not a perfect coin and there is an allowance for a few marks here and there. >>

I posted my other comment before I saw this post. Sounds like it is believed to be a well known fact that CAC does not sticker NGC graded coins at the same rate as PCGS graded coins. Any thoughts as to why, especially with a coin like this one where most here guessed the correct grade? Assuming a coin is properly graded (and assuming an even spread across the spectrum between coins that are 66.1 to 66.9), seems the two companies should have the same shot at a bean, absent an inherent prejudice in favor of one company over the other. >>

If PCGS is more conservative than NGC on a certain series then it is logical that CAC would have a higher sticker rate. I don't think that CAC varies it's standards for the different grading services.

1908 NM Saint. You vs. NGC

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