1883-O Morgan imaging Informational Contest official post Images and info starting to be uploaded

lostincoins · July 27, 2014 1:01AM

This is an informational contest to help the coin community with imaging equipment and techniques.
This idea came to me after seeing many questions being asked about imaging coins and from my own frustration. The coin is an 1883-O Morgan Silver Dollar in an ANACS (small slab) graded MS65. This is an interesting coin exhibiting textile toning and a varied color spread making it a bit more challenging to image. The rules are below along with a preliminary list of participants. If your name is not on the list and you would like it to be please PM me.
The goal is to have this completed by November 1st so the availability to participate will be based on the end date. As soon as you have the coin imaged to your satisfaction you must send it to the next participant and then do your editing and write up of your process.
If you have any questions or suggestions please PM me, leave the posting for the contest. If you are not willing to pay for the shipping to the next participant please PM me and we will work something out. (For the pros, I understand you may not want to divulge all your secrets and that is ok but please post a good amount of correct info, Thank you)

Thank you to all who participate in this important learning experience that is helpful to all of us.

Rules:
1) Categories of participants: List your experience (professional, enthusiast, neophyte). If you are a pro and have a business you can list the name of your business and contact information only, no sales pitches.
2) Be willing to participate in Q&A about your image and process.
3) The coin should be shipped to the next participant within 5 days. That should give enough time to image the coin and keep this moving along. Please PM me when imaging is done and I will give you the next participants’ name.
4) One set of images, obverse and reverse (as true to in hand as possible)
5) Images must be at 800x800 pixel count not smaller or larger
6) Cite camera and lens used
7) Cite lighting used and how positioned relative to the lens and the coin
8) Specify settings on camera. ISO, F-stop, aperture, etc. to the best of your ability
9) Cite in camera processing if using (sharpness, contrast, exposure compensation etc)
10) Cite white balance method used
11) Cite post-processing software used
12) Explain any editing (sharpening, stacking, noise reduction, etc).
13) The coin must not be removed from the holder and the slab must not be physically modified.
14) Most of all remember this is also supposed to be fun for everyone so let’s keep it that way

Participants:
lkeigwin-
mercurydimeguy-
rmpsrpms-
FadeToBlack-
illini420-
Robec-
BryceM-
CoinZip-
Flatwoods
Brol-
vibr0nic
MessyDesk-
morgansforever-
Kyle
Crazy4Coins

This is representative of 800X800 and if you are having problems sizing your image photobucket has a very easy editor to use.
Pic has no editing, straight from camera with built in flash (this does not do the coin justice so lets see what you all can do!

Flatwoods · July 27, 2014 3:17AM

One thing is certain. There will be some great photos out of that bunch.
I won't feel too bad if mine are the worst either. That's pretty tough company.

lostincoins · July 27, 2014 3:57AM

I will be posting my final image at the end, I just got a new 100mm macro and my pics are looking much better. FTB and Flatwoods you will do just fine I have seen your images and they look good.

lostincoins · July 27, 2014 11:21AM

Anyone off the evening crew want in on this?

messydesk · July 27, 2014 2:21PM

I'll play.

morgansforever · July 27, 2014 7:58PM

I'm all in

lostincoins · July 28, 2014 4:18AM

<< I'm all in

>>

You have been added to the list

Kyle · July 28, 2014 6:53AM

PM Sent

lostincoins · August 1, 2014 4:15AM

Is anyone on the list close to California? The first set of images has been completed and I need to send the coin to the next perso and wold like to limit the distance to increase working time.

illini420 · August 14, 2014 1:23PM

That was a fun coin to image, thanks for letting me participate... here's my best attempt at getting the coin to look as it does in hand:

Info on images:

Canon EOS Rebel T4i w/ Canon Macro Lens EF 100mm 1:2.8L IS USM
Auto-Focus
Used 2 high color temp CFL lights really high above the coin and camera at each side of coin
White Balance set to 18% Grey Card (months ago as a custom setting)
f/6.3
1/30 sec.
ISO-100
Made minor adjustment to the levels in Photoshop
No adjustments to color/saturation (no juicing)
Only other changes were cropping the image and resizing them to 800x800 pixels

lostincoins · August 14, 2014 1:31PM

Thank you Sir for being the first to post your information on the image setup.

illini420 · August 15, 2014 12:53PM

<< Thank you Sir for being the first to post your information on the image setup. >>

No problem, can't wait to see how everyone else does with this pretty Morgan

lostincoins · August 19, 2014 1:29PM

The coin is very hard to catch all the colors and the luster I think most will have to choose one or the other. Being that this is an informational thread please feel free to explain any issues you had while imaging the Morgan. I also agree she is a beauty.

CoinZip · August 20, 2014 12:45AM

illini420

awesome pics...... I'm starting to get a little nervous

lostincoins · August 20, 2014 3:59PM

Very Nice FTB Trying to image the luster and the color together is very hard with this coin.

mercurydimeguy · August 28, 2014 3:21AM

morgansforever · August 28, 2014 5:10AM

Some nice images forumites, can't wait to give it a whirl. I like the attempt by illini420 best, JMO.

mercurydimeguy · September 1, 2014 11:05AM

OK, here's my final/final photos (further below)...

The setup (picture below writeup):

Camera: Canon SL1
Lens: Sigma 150MM Macro w/hood
Focus: 100% manual
White Balance: manual (custom)
Copy Stand: Testrite
Lights: IKEA Jansjo (3x)
Diffusion: Kleenex tissues (non moist kind)
Light Configuration: 11 AM, 2 PM, 5PM, all at lens height
Software: Canon remote shooting software

Shutter Speed: 1/4 sec.
Aperture: f/8
Film Speed: ISO 200

My primary objective: Not to create a work of art but to capture what this coin really looks like in hand, including all of it's details (e.g. die cracks, slide marks, scuffs, etc.)

The key to photographing this coin was patience!! The obverse sort of just worked for me, counterintuitively, but the reverse was very difficult. This is an "O" mint mark Morgan so the reverse has a soft strike to it, and the coin is kind of wavy. The luster rolls across weird, and an older white ANACS slab with no prongs made it even more difficult (e.g. casting shadows around the rim area, making the nice light edge toning appear darker than it really was).

Anyhow, my resulting photographs attempt to show the true color of the coin, as well as the gradients of color change, plus show all the surface detail and as much luster as I could capture without sacrificing detail and original look.

Camera was tilted about 10% looking up to the coin, and the coin was propped up by a couple of 2x2 coin flips to ensure the shot was taken straight on.

Here's my camera setup..the coin photo is below.

COIN PHOTO:

hchcoin · September 1, 2014 11:13AM

Awesome thread lostincoins!!!!! What a great idea.

lostincoins · September 1, 2014 12:05PM

First off thank you to mercurydimeguy for posting your images and a pic of your setup, that will be very helpful to those struggling with how to set up their rigs. Very nice images and I can agree that the reverse is tricky especially trying to capture those die cracks.

hchcoin Thank you for your interest and feel free to comment on any of the currently uploaded images or ask questions as that is what this is all about. I want those that partisipate in this to be challenged and not just have that blast white Morgan we see all the time. Rico the revers is for you as it has very little tarnish

!

morgansforever · September 1, 2014 7:09PM

Nice job mercurydimeguy, one heck of an image, starting to sweat

mercurydimeguy · September 2, 2014 1:14AM

morgansforever you should be getting the coin today. USPS tracking shows it's out for delivery. looking forward to seeing your pics. I like/learn something from every photo that I look at.

Thanks!

guitarwes · September 2, 2014 1:36AM

Great thread. Looking forward to seeing the rest of it. Nice images already.

lostincoins · September 2, 2014 1:54AM

I am also looking forward to seeing what the others produce. This is turning out to be a very neat inter active project for the forum. I think we should also do this with some proof coins as a set like a cent, nickel, dime and half to show the difference in surfaces (anyone want to start that one up?). Keep up the good work everyone!

morgansforever · September 2, 2014 10:30AM

I hope preliminary images are ok, spent 5 minutes shooting it, had to post something. Just did a 16 hour day, and all I thought about was shooting this beast.
If it's ok with the OP, I would like to hold it for 1 more day, tonight my mind is crowded with work and doing my bosses job.
I'm not thrilled with the results.

EDIT: Never mind I have 5 days, read the rules, duh! Probably only need one more session or two. What drives me nuts, is that I keep thinking it's not sharp, it's the soft strike that screws with your eyes.

Stats:
Nikon D3100 AF Micro Nikkor 55mm 1:2.8
Aperture Priority mode
SS 1/60, F8, ISO 100, exposure comp. +0.7 WB custom set to the lights which are 3 CFL's, two at 10 n 2, one at 12
The reverse was shot the same as above except for a 1/125 SS
In camera sharpening bumped up one notch as well as the contrast
Both images cropped out at 1380x1380, resized using PB to 800x800
Added a dash of contrast, tiny bit of saturation, a bit of sharpening, and darkened the obv. image just a tad

lostincoins · September 2, 2014 11:41AM

Please everyone who is imaging this coin take your time getting your best image and then worry about sending the coin out after that. This is supposed to be fun and educational and I would hate to have anyone feel rushed especially after putting in a 16hr work day. I will adjust things accordingly to accommodate as best as I can. This is a tricky coin because of the soft strike and trying to show the die cracks on the reverse. It is like this coin is deliberately messing with your eyes...

morgansforever · September 8, 2014 10:16AM

Next stop is Ray, known here as rmpsrpms, I think. This guy can shoot a coin as good as anyone. His macro stuff is incredible.

Looking forward to the heavy hitters MD, Robec, Lance, BryceM etc. Should be exciting to see their attempts. Todd didn't participate?

mercurydimeguy · September 8, 2014 10:46AM

Good stuff...hopefully you didn't overdose on caffeine nor bite off all of your fingernails while the coin was in your possession

lostincoins · September 8, 2014 11:03AM

<< Next stop is Ray, known here as rmpsrpms, I think. This guy can shoot a coin as good as anyone. His macro stuff is incredible.

Looking forward to the heavy hitters MD, Robec, Lance, BryceM etc. Should be exciting to see their attempts. Todd didn't participate? >>

At this time there is still an open invite to those that would like to image this coin, just send me a PM and I will add you to the list.

rmpsrpms · September 12, 2014 1:14PM

<< Next stop is Ray, known here as rmpsrpms, I think. This guy can shoot a coin as good as anyone. His macro stuff is incredible.

Looking forward to the heavy hitters MD, Robec, Lance, BryceM etc. Should be exciting to see their attempts. Todd didn't participate? >>

Wow, the pressure is on!

I got the coin last night and will take a shot at it over the weekend. It is a beautiful coin and I'm going to try a couple techniques on it to see what works best...Ray

lostincoins · September 12, 2014 1:43PM

Hey Ray have fun with it as the others have....

rmpsrpms · September 13, 2014 12:58PM

This was definitely an interesting and fun coin to image. First, it is very beautiful. Getting the colors right was more challenging than most toners due to the depth of the toning. I ended up imaging it three times! First images were done using a fairly normal diffused lighting technique at highest non-reflective angle to bring out both color and provide some luster presentation. Second images were done using a pseudo-axial lighting technique, which brings out the depth of colors well, but suppresses luster more than the first technique. After publishing those images, and having not yet sent the coin to the next photographer, I decided to use a third lighting technique with reflected Jansjos, and to leave the coin un-cropped. This allowed me to "calibrate" the brightness of the obverse and reverse by adjusting overall brightness of each side to give the same white level on the slab insert. Doing this gives the best impression of how bright the reverse is, and how relatively dark the obverse is. My earlier images were adjusted independently, and I ended up making the obverse brighter and reverse darker than they really should be in comparison with each other, but I am going to leave them just as they are.

I also ended up using three different sets of equipment. I was in the middle of configuring a setup for a client, and decided to use it for the diffused lighting images. For the pseudo-axial images, I used my personal setup, though with an unusual lens that worked better with the lighting technique. For the reflected images I used yet a different lens! Certain lighting styles are easier with particular lenses due to their mechanical characteristics (diameter, etc) and working distance.

For the first images (diffused), here is the setup and workflow:

Camera: Canon Rebel XS, 10.2MP DSLR

Lens: Nikon EL-Nikkor 80mm f/5.6 enlarging lens set to f8

Lighting: 3 Jansjo LED gooseneck lamps diffused with "RSD" diffusers. Main lights at approx 10 and 2. Fill-in light at approx 5. Angle to vertical set such that the light from the RSD is slightly away from the direct reflection angle off slab surface. Fill-in light set at a slightly lower angle. All 3 lights approx 12 inches from the coin.

Camera settings: Av mode; Live View tethered with Canon EOS Utility; ISO100; Picture Style Neutral 0,0,0,0; -2/3EV; jpg Large output

White Balance: Manual with offset adjusted for equal RGB on white slab insert. Verified the slab insert is true white using 18% gray card

Post-Processing Software: Nikon ViewNX2; PaintShop Pro to circle crop onto black background

PP Workflow: Down-size to 1296x864; Crop to 800x800; adjust contrast and brightness; Circle crop onto black background; Small sharpness adjustment; Publish

For the second images (pseudo-axial), here is the setup and workflow:

Camera: Canon Rebel HRT2i, 18MP DSLR

Lens: Zeiss Mikrotar 90mm f6.3 fixed aperture macro lens

Lighting: Diffuser attached to lens mount and lit by 4 Jansjo LED gooseneck lamps. Lens is very small so that the light from diffuser simulates axial lighting well

Camera settings: Av mode; Live View tethered with Canon EOS Utility; ISO100; Picture Style Neutral 0,0,0,0; -2/3EV; jpg Large output

White Balance: Manual with offset adjusted for equal RGB on white slab insert. Verified the slab insert is true white using 18% gray card

Post-Processing Software: Nikon ViewNX2; PaintShop Pro to circle crop onto black background

PP Workflow: Down-size to 1296x864; Crop to 800x800; adjust contrast and brightness; Circle crop onto black background; Small sharpness adjustment; Publish

For the third images (reflected), here is the setup and workflow:

Camera: Canon Rebel HRT2i, 18MP DSLR

Lens: Rodenstock 75mm f4 Apo-Rodagon D M1:1 duplicating lens set to f5.6

Lighting: 2 Jansjo LED gooseneck lamps shining up toward the lens and reflected back to the coin with white paper

Camera settings: Av mode; Live View tethered with Canon EOS Utility; ISO100; Picture Style Neutral 0,0,0,0; -2/3EV; jpg Large output

White Balance: Manual with offset adjusted for equal RGB on white slab insert. Verified the slab insert is true white using 18% gray card

Post-Processing Software: Nikon ViewNX2

PP Workflow: Down-size to 1296x864; Crop to 800x800; adjust contrast and brightness; Small sharpness adjustment; Publish

lostincoins · September 14, 2014 12:15PM

Very nice images Ray and I noticed on your reverse you can see the faint tanish dots that could also be textile marks. Your setups are very interesting.

mdwoods · September 14, 2014 4:08PM

Great thread and great photos. It's a bit over my head with my pretty basic camera.

morgansforever · September 14, 2014 8:59PM

Good stuff Ray, love seeing the different looks you provided. I like the third set of images best, JMO. How about you?

rmpsrpms · September 14, 2014 10:20PM

<< Good stuff Ray, love seeing the different looks you provided. I like the third set of images best, JMO. How about you? >>

Thanks! It's cool how the different lighting styles create such different looks. Hold the coin in different ways in-hand and you get glimpses that look like each of these, and also like yours and like the others who have posted. What represents the coin best? Out of my 3 shots I also prefer the last set, mostly because of the contrast between obverse and reverse it provides. The first set shows better luster, while the second set shows the toned surfaces better.

Posting images as we go keeps the thread interesting and lively, and the images from previous photographers provide a great reference for the next. I am anxious to see how the others will interpret this coin!

lostincoins · September 14, 2014 10:39PM

I also like the 3rd set best as it shows the pull away toning on the date along with the greens. The greens are what originally drew me to this coin.

morgansforever · September 14, 2014 11:30PM

Another factor beyond the photographers control is how the viewer sees it. We all have different monitors set to our liking. Mine is set to 1366x788, color set to highest 32 bit. Plus, if you look at the monitor at a high angle the image becomes lighter, bring your head down a bit the image becomes darker. Then toss in the individuals level of vision, mine is 20/10 as of 2 months ago, don't know if this is a factor or not.

lostincoins · September 15, 2014 4:28AM

All these factors play a role when digitally imaging a coin. I have a 27" HD monitor to help with part of the issues and color calibrate it every 2 weeks just to make sure it and my eyes are seeing things correctly.

mercurydimeguy · September 15, 2014 9:22AM

And to add, Mac vs Windows Gamma is different (unless one manually adusts it during post-process) and since I work on a Mac, I honestly have no idea what the coins look like on a PC

lostincoins · September 15, 2014 1:05PM

All good points that are good topics for conversation. If anyone has any questions or comments please post them and get involved as this is to help everyone produce better images of their coins. The better images we produce the easier it will be to answer questions about their coins.

rmpsrpms · September 15, 2014 1:15PM

Add to that again that each browser alters the gamma and color a bit and you have a hard time making sure your images look like you want them to.

Since I had the coin for another day, and was not happy with the sharpness I ended up with, I decided to test the camera's sharpening vs my own method. The result: I found I prefer the camera's internal sharpening. I usually don't sharpen at all unless I am downsizing the image, and then just give it a small sharpening to compensate the downsizing algorithm, but it seems sharpening early is best. Here are reflected light images, using internal camera sharpening level 3, with all other parameters the same as last images:

lostincoins · September 15, 2014 2:06PM

Ray this last set looks much more focused as the previous images looked a little bit soft. Could yoou post a diagram or a image of the setup used to take these last images so that those not familiar with it can get a better understanding?

rmpsrpms · September 15, 2014 10:14PM

<< Ray this last set looks much more focused as the previous images looked a little bit soft. Could yoou post a diagram or a image of the setup used to take these last images so that those not familiar with it can get a better understanding? >>

The main differences between these last shots and previous is the sharpening method, but I did go back and check and my aperture setting was also different...f8 vs f5.6. Ironically, I always recommend f8 for Dollars but ended up shooting earlier images with f5.6. It could very well be that the improved depth of field at f8 made a significant difference on the overall sharpness.

The decision about what aperture to use is somewhat complicated. The tradeoff is unsharpness due to diffraction vs depth of field, but how this tradeoff affects the image is strongly affected by the final published image size. For instance, if you are planning to downsize by 2x, you can stop down by 2 stops more than if you are going to publish full size (printed image, for instance). This gives you better depth of field without taking a penalty in diffraction, but the original full size images will show diffraction blur.

My usual method is to get as much pixel level detail as I can, so I don't stop down based on my final image size. I want to be able to zoom in on details and have them be sharp, and stopping down blurs details with diffraction. But in this case where the overall image is the goal, and the final published size is 800x800, stopping down is acceptable and probably gives a sharper image.

The setup I used consists of a Bausch and Lomb microscope stand with fine focus control and bellows mount, Pentax Auto Bellows, 75mm f4 Apo-Rodagon D M1:1 lens, and Canon HRT2i camera. The lights are a pair of Jansjo LEDs shining up to a piece of white paper, reflecting back onto the coin. It looks like this:

blu62vette · September 15, 2014 10:18PM

Ray-

Can you crop and post a full size section of the coin?

rmpsrpms · September 15, 2014 10:58PM

<< Ray-

Can you crop and post a full size section of the coin? >>

Todd...here are some 100% crops from the last images:

rmpsrpms · September 15, 2014 11:20PM

Well, I finally had to part with this very colorful Morgan Dollar. It was fun imaging it (and imaging it, and...) but alas it needed to move on to the next contestant, Messydesk.

Good luck to Messydesk and all the following contestants!

Ray

lostincoins · September 15, 2014 11:50PM

Ray those cropped images are really sharp and show the really cool details of this coin. The colors on this thing are amazing to me. For anyone good with VAMS I have not yet looked up this coin, the crop shot of the date may help with identifying a possible VAM if someone wants to take a shot at it. Todd was there a reason you wanted the crop shots?

1883-O Morgan imaging Informational Contest official post Images and info starting to be uploaded

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