Minnesota "Bullion Coin Dealer" Law
foodude
Posts: 3,552 ✭✭✭
There have been a few threads on this topic since the law was passed in MN last year. Full implementation begins July 1, 2014. The MN Department of Commerce has been tasked for implementing the law, and has a webpage devoted to it. Here is a summary they provide as a "Final Checkilst" Link
The law defines a "Bullion Coin" as any coin containing more than one percent by weight of silver, gold, platinum, or other precious metal.
So far only 26 entities are listed as being registered; all are MN entities, save for one in Louisiana. The remaining entities listed are aliases of one of the 26. I know a few additional Minnesota dealers are in the process of completing their registration before the July 1st deadline. Interesting that only one out-of-state dealer is listed as being registered so far.
The law defines a "Bullion Coin" as any coin containing more than one percent by weight of silver, gold, platinum, or other precious metal.
So far only 26 entities are listed as being registered; all are MN entities, save for one in Louisiana. The remaining entities listed are aliases of one of the 26. I know a few additional Minnesota dealers are in the process of completing their registration before the July 1st deadline. Interesting that only one out-of-state dealer is listed as being registered so far.
Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.
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<< <i>Is anyone actually going to stay in the coin business in Minnesota? >>
law a precursor to tax and fine at will.. day by day ....freedom being eroded right under our eyes
Anyone dealing there should run it thru their attorney. What a nightmare of complexity and red tape.
<< <i>The people get what they deserve. >>
au contraire I think you mean that they deserve what they get. The two statements don't even mean anywhere near the same thing.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Step 2, Item 6: You are a person who engages only in transactions at occasional trade shows where the consumer is present and the transaction is made at the trade show.
Most people in the State also do transactions outside of shows, but even if they confine themselves to shows, the term "occasional" is not defined.
Edited to add: Anyone dealing there should run it thru their attorney. What a nightmare of complexity and red tape.
Over the last few weeks, I've watched a number of dealers take the DYI approach to this Unfortunately, many are very small businesses where the legal fees would be a relatively substantial cost for them. Some are registering because it is cheaper or safer to register, get the bond, do the required paperwork, etc. then the potential alternative, even if perhaps they might fall under an exemption. And some are simply going out of business.
BAJJERFAN,
Don't think. Go back to your "business".
BTW, like your sig line ... says a lot about you.
When people hem and haw when I want good money for my stuff I just say. You know what? If I hadn't paid up for this coin I wouldn't have it to sell to you.
<< <i>au contraire I think you mean that they deserve what they get. The two statements don't even mean anywhere near the same thing.
BAJJERFAN,
Don't think. Go back to your "business".
BTW, like your sig line ... says a lot about you.
When people hem and haw when I want good money for my stuff I just say. You know what? If I hadn't paid up for this coin I wouldn't have it to sell to you. >>
You do understand the difference between the two statements don't you? Why do people deserve to get run over by Government? When your actions [or inactions as the case may be] cause unfavorable consequences to be rendered upon your person, it can be fairly said that you are deserving of what you get.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>It looks like Minnesota had decided to destroy the coin business in their state. When your vote for a government that is run by hippies, this is what you are going to get. >>
Exactly what "hippies" would you be referring for? This statement doesn't make any sense to me, and I have lived in Minnesota for more than 10 years.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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<< <i>It looks like Minnesota had decided to destroy the coin business in their state. When your vote for a government that is run by hippies, this is what you are going to get. >>
Exactly what "hippies" would you be referring for? This statement doesn't make any sense to me, and I have lived in Minnesota for more than 10 years. >>
Is/was Al Franken a hippie?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
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<< <i>It looks like Minnesota had decided to destroy the coin business in their state. When your vote for a government that is run by hippies, this is what you are going to get. >>
Exactly what "hippies" would you be referring for? This statement doesn't make any sense to me, and I have lived in Minnesota for more than 10 years. >>
Is/was Al Franken a hippie? >>
Irrelevant, as he is a US Senator from Minnesota -- not a Minnesota State Senator. This is a state bill, not a federal one.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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I have familiarity with a listed case and frankly the "coin sellers" in his case belong in jail not in a civil case. My opinion. Why the state of Minnesota was unable to prosecute them is beyond imagination. They just ripped that man off, a WW2 vet, saved his entire life while living frugally in a small panhandle town only to see the vast majority of it gone.
How gone? I'll give you 1 example. What would you call a seller that takes the highest price ever sold at auction for a coin, use a washed out specimen as it's example and sell it for 100-300% over the highest price sold at auction and call it an investment? The listed cases lawyer did the best he could, however when push came to shove the "dealers" stayed in the relative safety of Minnesota as obviously the state either couldn't care less or didn't know how to do so.
The Minnesota press did their jobs by illuminating these "sellers". The "state" of Minnesota's inability to lock these people up is a sad joke and illuminates their incompetence. My opinion again.
Coin's for sale/trade.
Tom Pilitowski
US Rare Coin Investments
800-624-1870
Seems like this might be one of those laws that prove the saying about the road to hell being paved with good intentions.
Indian Head $10 Gold Date Set Album
Those that shepherded this through the system did not actively consult with the legitimate industry leaders on this, although some of these dealers tried to engage with those moving the bill through the system. The result is the law affects a large number of people that had nothing to do with even the legitimate type of business models of telemarketing and the like. We'll see in the next few days how many dealers will be out of business, and what remaining sellers within the State and those outside the State selling into the State to consumers will do. Sadly, on top of this, there is a significant hole in the law that hopefully the scammers will not figure out; but there are other laws on the books to cover other aspects of certain basic scams.
Ironically during the same time last year this bill was going through the legislative process, a number of dealers worked with the local better business bureau to develop consumer tips related to coins. While the final tips were drafted by the BBB, the input led to more understandable, useful, meaningful consumer tips than what likely would have resulted without that input.
If the new Minnesota law eliminates the majority of your competition (pawn shops/coins shops/jewelry etc.) and you are willing to jump through the hoops, you may see an increase in business.
Just trying to find the positive in an otherwise crummy law
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
So far only one out-of-state entity is listed as being registered; and there are 26 entities registered within the state.
There are a number of interesting things about this law; here is another one. To register you are required to disclose your name, assumed names, doing business as names, including caller identification names, the name of each owner and officer, and the name of each of representative.
If the new Minnesota law eliminates the majority of your competition (pawn shops/coins shops/jewelry etc.) and you are willing to jump through the hoops, you may see an increase in business.
This perhaps unintended consequence has not gone unnoticed by some of the remaining dealers. So far it looks like only one or two pawn shops or pawn shop chains are listed as registered. Not clear if any jewelers have registered. While most MN coin dealers have known, or should have known, about this new law for at least a year, as it has been a topic of conversation among the dealer community for over a year, and been preparing for it, some are curious as to how many of the pawn shops, jewelry shops, etc. that handle precious metal coins too are aware of it.
<< <i>f a MN resident bought your monster box of ASEs on eBay, would you have to decline the transaction if you weren't registered?
So far only one out-of-state entity is listed as being registered; and there are 26 entities registered within the state.
There are a number of interesting things about this law; here is another one. To register you are required to disclose your name, assumed names, doing business as names, including caller identification names, the name of each owner and officer, and the name of each of representative. >>
If you put up a monster box of ASEs on eBay, you aren't necessarily intentionally soliciting clients from a specific state so if someone from MN was high bidder, they would be an incidental sale. If you weren't registered under the new law, how would you handle the sale? Would you put a statement in your listing saying that MN residents can't buy from you?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Hopefully 2014 is a good year and we can vote these thugs out of office.
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<< <i>It looks like Minnesota had decided to destroy the coin business in their state. When your vote for a government that is run by hippies, this is what you are going to get. >>
Exactly what "hippies" would you be referring for? This statement doesn't make any sense to me, and I have lived in Minnesota for more than 10 years. >>
Is/was Al Franken a hippie? >>
Irrelevant, as he is a US Senator from Minnesota -- not a Minnesota State Senator. This is a state bill, not a federal one. >>
Since you seem to enjoy the policies that stem from this philosophy of government, I'll leave Al Franken and leaders of his stripe for you enjoy. This is a bad law, and it will make harder for you to enjoy your hobby in your state. But since you want to defend it, I'll let you enjoy it and will hope that it does not come to my state.
BTW one definition of a hippie is someone who has no concept of the real world and what it takes to earn a living and save and build for the future. They live in a dream world where they believe that they can make everything perfect though government laws and regulations. They also believe that they are entitled the fruits of other people's labor in the name of "fairness."
I've heard a variety of answers to that question.
Some of the theories related to situations like this in the local press are, on the one side the law may interfere with interstate commerce laws by imposing restrictions on out-of-state dealers who do business in Minnesota.
On the other hand the MN Attorney General’s Office says it is comfortable that the law will meet constitutional muster, as the regulatory scheme is similar to the state’s oversight of payday lenders.
As far as the out-of-state dealers that come into MN for the Northwest and MOON shows, some have pointed to one of the exceptions in the law regarding "a person who engages only in transactions at occasional trade shows where the consumer is present and the transaction is made at the trade show." At a meeting with the Department of Commerce at last year's MOON show their position was at least 2 shows was okay if relying on "occasional" for an exemption to the law. I heard later, second hand that after the meeting they may be comfortable with up to 4 shows.
I do not plan to ever set up at a show in Minnesota, they can bite me with their punitive laws. I'll go to surrounding states instead.
“In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock." - Thomas Jefferson
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<< <i>It looks like Minnesota had decided to destroy the coin business in their state. When your vote for a government that is run by hippies, this is what you are going to get. >>
Exactly what "hippies" would you be referring for? This statement doesn't make any sense to me, and I have lived in Minnesota for more than 10 years. >>
Is/was Al Franken a hippie? >>
Irrelevant, as he is a US Senator from Minnesota -- not a Minnesota State Senator. This is a state bill, not a federal one. >>
Since you seem to enjoy the policies that stem from this philosophy of government, I'll leave Al Franken and leaders of his stripe for you enjoy. This is a bad law, and it will make harder for you to enjoy your hobby in your state. But since you want to defend it, I'll let you enjoy it and will hope that it does not come to my state.
BTW one definition of a hippie is someone who has no concept of the real world and what it takes to earn a living and save and build for the future. They live in a dream world where they believe that they can make everything perfect though government laws and regulations. They also believe that they are entitled the fruits of other people's labor in the name of "fairness." >>
I wasn't defending anything. I was curious who you were referring to as hippies that you knew of in the MN legislature. Al Franken has nothing to do with this law, as I already stated -- he is a US Senator.
I personally think the "law" is short sighted, and I can't fathom how on earth they would enforce it.
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My sets: [280+ horse coins] :: [France Sowers] :: [Colorful world copper] :: [Beautiful world coins]
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The way it is written it appears that out of state sellers of bullion items to buyers in Minnesota are subject to the requirements. This is not going to go well.
The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
That was the understanding from the Department of Commerce presentation at last fall's MOON show. And remember their definition of a bullion coin is any coin containing more than one percent by weight of silver, gold, platinum, or other precious metal. That would make even an 1804 dollar a "bullion coin".
Can you sell coins to a CCE coin dealer in MN without a hitch under the new law?
Wondercoin
"Everything is on its way to somewhere. Everything." - George Malley, Phenomenon
http://www.americanlegacycoins.com
The first local show since registration is required is July 12th- we are curious as to which dealers will be at the show.
According to the MN Department of Commerce, "consumer is not defined in Minnesota Statutes §80G and has varying definitions is Minnesota statutes. The dictionary definition for the term “consumer” is “a person who purchases goods and services for personal use.”
Note when the state is looking at transactions for the bond requirement to the law, they are only looking at retail transactions: "Total amount of transactions upon which the amount of the surety bond shall be based, is the total dollar amount of purchases from and sales to consumers domiciled, residing, or otherwise located in the state of Minnesota, at retail." Unless retail is defined somewhere in the law, they have not posted a definition of retail.
The law also states: "A bullion coin dealer does not include ... a person who engages only in wholesale bullion coin transactions with bullion coin dealers who sell at retail and are properly registered ..."
For DYI crowd or your attorney to sort out:
Here is a link to the law: Section 80G
Here is a link to the MN Department of Commerce website: Link
<< <i>It would appear that there will be a lot of "No Sales to Residents of Minnesota" showing up in eBay auctions, even if only to serve as a wake-up call to call attention to this law. >>
Just think of the potential legal expenses this law could generate for a completely legit seller who runs afoul of the provisions of this law. Other than people on this forum who read this thread most probably won't know about this law. Trouble (and expense) is ahead for some unfortunate souls.
Joseph J. Singleton - First Superintendent of the U.S. Branch Mint in Dahlonega Georgia
Findley Ridge Collection
About Findley Ridge
The bond is in place so people don't skip town. It is based on previous retail sales. How much does it cost to get a surety bond for $250,000? $25,000? Less? It is similar to insurance, right?
They want to know who is doing business in the state and the power to crack down on telemarketers and people who scam people. It seems there ar enough loopholes to do business without repercussions. I don't like the registration and oversight of my business. That's what I don't like. Too much oversight.
reminds me about abbie Hoffman ......weatherman days..... days of rage, Chicago 7 etc... which by the a Weatherman bomber from the late 60s'... Bill Ayers appears on Megyn Kelly.. Monday..
Ayers... son of former excelon president, now...along with bill's wife ... bomber Bernadine Dohrn both are employed by the State of Illinois University
yes... these now, are our leaders.. which is why our freedoms will continue to erode with laws like in Minnesota
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<< <i>It would appear that there will be a lot of "No Sales to Residents of Minnesota" showing up in eBay auctions, even if only to serve as a wake-up call to call attention to this law. >>
Just think of the potential legal expenses this law could generate for a completely legit seller who runs afoul of the provisions of this law. Other than people on this forum who read this thread most probably won't know about this law. Trouble (and expense) is ahead for some unfortunate souls. >>
Yup. You're going to effectively guilty until proven innocent if someone comes after you. Even if the target of the law is narrow, legislators are known for not being able to hit the broad side of a barn with their "targeted legislation".
Keeper of the VAM Catalog • Professional Coin Imaging • Prime Number Set • World Coins in Early America • British Trade Dollars
<< <i>Makes me want to go to Minnesota and take up fishing or ice skating. >>
You don't like hockey, Joe?
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
<< <i>It would appear that there will be a lot of "No Sales to Residents of Minnesota" showing up in eBay auctions, even if only to serve as a wake-up call to call attention to this law. >>
It looks like you could sell about $5K worth before you'd have an issue. I'd give the whole thing time to shake out before I did anything one way or the other.
MY COINS FOR SALE AT https://www.pcgs.com/setregistry/collectors-showcase/other/bajjerfans-coins-sale/3876
Wondercoin
<< <i>Makes me want to go to Minnesota and take up fishing or ice skating. >>
…and to the illustrious forum member who sent me this photo….I will answer publicly:
"Yes,… even hockey "
I'm not a very good skater, though… Still wading through "sliders' in the world of " nomenclatures".
The scriptures say: "Obey the law for _ _ _ put it there for it's purpose"… or something to that effect. So ultimately, to stay in the game , conformity to law is essential.
Just remember that. The truth will always set us free. In other news,
They (Surety bond sellers) are licking their chops too.
Minnesota Starts to Regulate and Track Gold Coin Dealers
Good interview with Gary Adkins from last year.
Consider: The largest coin dealer in the Minnesota is in favor of the regulation. The Star-Tribune reports:
“We had some rotten apples in the business,” said Jim Cook, owner of Investment Rarities Inc. in Bloomington, who is considered the grandfather of coin telemarketing in Minnesota. “The big thing is keeping the felons out of the business."
Could it be that it is all about getting rid of Jim Cook's competition?