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OMG.. Eye Candy!! Matte Proofs...

RelaxnRelaxn Posts: 848 ✭✭✭✭
Matte!

image

WOW

Comments

  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nice set

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  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very nice.

    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • ebaytraderebaytrader Posts: 3,312 ✭✭✭
    image
  • WingedLiberty1957WingedLiberty1957 Posts: 2,960 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Such interesting surfaces on these Gold Matte Proof coins.
    You really get a sense of the sandblasted dies.
    These are the CoinFacts images of the above coins, shot out of the slab by Phil Arnold.

    image
    image
    image

  • OldIndianNutKaseOldIndianNutKase Posts: 2,700 ✭✭✭✭✭
    SPECTACULARimage
  • crypto79crypto79 Posts: 8,623


    << <i>Such interesting surfaces on these Gold Matte Proof coins.
    You really get a sense of the sandblasted dies. >>



    I believe it was the coins them selves that were sand blasted.
  • etexmikeetexmike Posts: 6,794 ✭✭✭
    That is one nice little gold horde.


    Mike
  • AnkurJAnkurJ Posts: 11,366 ✭✭✭✭
    I would rather have regular proofs. More flash.
    All coins kept in bank vaults.
    PCGS Registries
    Box of 20
    SeaEagleCoins: 11/14/54-4/5/12. Miss you Larry!
  • STONESTONE Posts: 15,275


    << <i>I would rather have regular proofs. More flash. >>


    Similar what I was going to say.

    While incredibly rare, these [proof] coins are dull and lifeless...a real bore for me to look at!
  • bestmrbestmr Posts: 1,761 ✭✭✭
    I'm glad I'm not the only one that feels like they don't pop like a proof should. Still, incredible peices.
    Positive dealing with oilstates2003, rkfish, Scrapman1077, Weather11am, Guitarwes, Twosides2acoin, Hendrixkat, Sevensteps, CarlWohlforth, DLBack, zug, wildjag, tetradrachm, tydye, NotSure, AgBlox, Seemyauction, Stopmotion, Zubie, Fivecents, Musky1011, Bstat1020, Gsa1fan several times, and Mkman123 LOTS of times
  • I think these are stunning - monstrous - incredible beauty and a nice break from all the bells and whistles of shiny mirrors. These have a very rigid, serious medal look. The design appears augmented by this finish to me.

    Eric
  • rmpsrpmsrmpsrpms Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wow, I've never really looked at any of these before. I find them very alluring, though their method of manufacture in my mind is akin to "post mint damage" though it was done within the mint. It is certainly "post strike damage". Weird way to finish a coin, by passing it through a stream of sand. The other thing I notice is that any small flaw is greatly magnified since it makes the surface look shiny in that area. I don't think these are my cup of tea, though they are still cool IMO.
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  • RelaxnRelaxn Posts: 848 ✭✭✭✭
    I absolutely adore these coins. So few are original anymore. The damn "coin doctors" are messing with these coins so much. It is disgusting.



    and I do not think this would be consider PMD or even Post strike.. The sand blasting was done either to the planchet before the strike or it was done to the die... there are more knowledgeable people here than I on this matter. I am fairly certain, though, the "sandblasting" process would occur before the striking of the actual coin.


    the coins are still affordable but finding ones that have not been messed with are so tough.


    JL

    A Weekly Column for CoinWeek by Greg Reynolds

    The emergence of an original gold Proof set from 1912 is a major event, as all “Matte Proof” gold issues are rare and a majority of the survivors are not very original. Many collectors, researchers and other coin enthusiasts are or will be excited to learn that such a set was auctioned at the autumn Long Beach Expo.

    This third Long Beach Expo of the year was held at the Long Beach Convention Center in the county of Los Angeles. This event was open to the public from Sept. 26th to Sept. 28th. Heritage conducted the official auction while this expo was in progress, though some non-live sessions remained open for bids after the Expo closed. Although Heritage auctioned thousands of coins and other numismatic items, the focus here is on a a set of gold coins that probably has been held by members of the same family since this set was acquired directly from the Philadelphia Mint in 1912.

    1912 matte proof set Sandblast ‘Matte Proof’ Gold Coins: Original 1912 Set auctioned during Autumn Long Beach ExpoSandblast “Proof” U.S. gold coins, with original surfaces, are extremely rare. Further, these represent a fascinating and path breaking period in the history of the Philadelphia Mint. With very few exceptions, all sandblast “Proof” U.S. gold coins were minted from 1911 to 1915, and in 1908. Sandblast finish coins are now typically termed “Matte Proofs” and these gold coins were termed “Proofs” when distributed by officials at the Philadelphia Mint.

    A gold “Proof” Set of 1912 consists of four coins: Quarter Eagle ($2½ gold coin), Half Eagle ($5 gold coin), Eagle ($10) and Double Eagle ($20). The Half Eagle and the Eagle are PCGS certified as “Proof-66.” The Quarter Eagle and the Double Eagle are PCGS certified “Proof-66+.” All four coins have stickers of approval from the CAC.

    Experts at the CAC ignore the plus aspects of plus grades assigned by the graders at the PCGS or the NGC. Therefore, all four are approved at the MS-66 level and experts at the CAC are not revealing which of the four, if any, they find to merit grades in the ‘high end’ of the 66 range.

    John Albanese is the founder and president of the CAC. Views of Albanese, Richard Burdick and Andy Lustig are included in this discussion.

    I. When Were “Matte Proofs” Made?

    For series of copper, ‘nickel’ and gold coins that started, though not necessarily ended, between 1907 and 1930, Proofs were not struck with brilliant, mirrorlike surfaces. Instead, different forms of special strikings were produced. From 1907 to 1916, specially struck coins were sold (or otherwise distributed) to collectors and non-collectors as “Proofs,” even though they are much different from coins that were termed Proofs in earlier eras.

    There were sandblast finish, Roman Finish and satin finish special strikings from 1907 to the 1920s, and maybe in the 1930s as well. I am not convinced of the authenticity of the special aspects of commemorative half dollars from 1930s that have been catalogued as and/or certified as sandblast “Matte Proofs,” though I recollect having only seen a very small number of them.

    Sandblast finish, Roman Finish and satin finish special strikings are much different indeed in fabric and texture from Proof U.S. coins of the 19th century. The terms matte, Roman, satin and sandblast have never been carefully defined. Generally, gold coins dating 1908 and dating from 1911 to 1915 that were then (and are now) termed ‘Proofs’ have a sandblast finish. Although I regard the term ‘Sandblast Finish’ as accurate and most appropriate, I follow the lead of most experts over the last few decades in that they refer to each such sandblast finish coin as a “Matte Proof.’

    As for the Roman Finish gold coins and patterns of 1907, 1909 and 1910, these are a different topic, which I will discuss in the future. In the current discussion, the term “Matte Proof” refers to sandblast finish gold coins of 1908, of 1911 to 1915, and perhaps a very small number with other dates. “Matte Proof” Lincoln Cents, Buffalo Nickels and Peace Dollars are also a different topic.

    Sandblast Finish (“Matte Proof”) gold coins were sprayed with pellets, presumably of sand, while the metal was still hot. Coins with a similar finish were struck in some European nations during the late 19th century and/or early 20th century. To a significant extent, U.S. Mint officials followed the lead of Europeans, in regard to producing “Matte Proofs,” though European “Matte Proof” coins tend to differ from U.S. “Matte Proof” coins. The methods of manufacture were not entirely the same.

    As most major coin auctions include at least a couple of sandblast finish “Matte Proof” U.S gold coins, why are the 1912 “Matte Proof” gold coins that Heritage sold on Sept. 27th very newsworthy? A truly original set of “Matte Proof” U.S. gold coins is of tremendous importance.

    II. Few Originals Survive

    lb matte 1912 250 Sandblast ‘Matte Proof’ Gold Coins: Original 1912 Set auctioned during Autumn Long Beach ExpoFor more than twenty years, I have been examining Sandblast Finish (“Matte Proof”) gold coins that appear in major auctions, including those in epic sales and many in minor auctions. The number of very much original pieces has dwindled at a shocking rate. The vast majority have been dipped in acid solutions, torched, subjected to additives or chemically altered. Quite a few have been resurfaced (‘rematted’) by coin doctors. Only a minor percentage of the PCGS or NGC certified Sandblast Finish, “Matte Proof” U.S. gold coins are close to being fully original.

    John Albanese is extremely knowledgeable about these: “A lot of Matte Proof coins have been dipped. When a 19th century Proof gold coin is dipped, there is usually more contrast between the design and the fields, afterwards. On a dipped, [sandblast] Matte Proof gold coin, there is less contrast than there was before it was dipped. The dipping removes much of the contrast. Some Matte Proof coins are placed in solutions that are harsher than typical dips. Jewel Luster is a typical dip. The harsher solutions usually [bring about] an unnatural color much lighter than the original color,” John emphasizes.

    Andy Lustig asserts that “less than 20% of the sandblast Matte Proof gold coins seen in the marketplace have their original surfaces and color. Each year [of mintage] has a very distinctive color, a very distinctive look. If you saw a series of Matte Proof gold coins put away at the time of issue, that would be obvious, and you would quickly learn what to expect in an original coin. Today, given the scarcity of original coins, it is far more difficult to learn the lessons. Recognizing originality in Matte Proof gold coins is becoming a lost art.”

    Richard Burdick declares that “the colors of the sandblast finish not only vary from year to year, the colors sometimes vary within a year. They vary from deep hues of yellowish gold to brown, orange-brown and green-brown. It is impossible to totally describe the original colors,” Burdick insists. David Akers also made clear, in his published writings, that original colors sometimes vary for sandblast Matte Proofs of the same date (year).

    I note that that original Matte Proof gold coins are often of a mustard color, in many instances like the color of Gulden’s Spicy Brown mustard and, in other cases, similar to the color of Grey Poupon Dijon mustard. Matte Proof gold coins may also be of a brown-green color or sort of a blend of brown and olive. Other original colors are a medium mellow yellow color or a dark orange-green. Mellow or dark orange colors may stem from natural, coppery areas on a “Matte Proof” coin. Rich orange or light blonde colors that are often seen on Matte Proof gold coins have been artificially induced.

    lb matte 1912 5 Sandblast ‘Matte Proof’ Gold Coins: Original 1912 Set auctioned during Autumn Long Beach ExpoAs Richard indicates, such original colors are hard to explain. Unfortunately, photographs and other images of Matte Proof gold coins do not accurately portray their actual colors, in most cases.

    It is sad that there are only a few of us left who can (usually) identify original colors. Nobody has even a near-perfect record when determining the originality of Matte Proof gold coins. Indeed, it is extremely difficult to do so and leading experts often fail.

    Albanese is the foremost expert in U.S. gold coins. Andy Lustig has been carefully studying Matte Proofs for around thirty years. Richard Burdick is very familiar with the original colors as well.

    “I started to study Matte Proof gold coins in 1969,” Richard recollects. “I got very deeply involved with them in 1973 when I viewed the Matte Proof gold coins in the Garrett Collection at Evergreen House in Baltimore. They were, for the most part, unmolested. When they were lined up in a tray, I got to notice the different colors.” Burdick agrees that “original, unmolested Matte Proof gold coins are getting scarcer as time goes by, because of dipping, cleaning, so called conservation practices, and abuse in a multitude of ways by coin doctors.”

    Andy Lustig “started buying and selling Matte Proof gold coins in the early to mid 1980s, before the PCGS was founded. When I saw many original Matte Proof gold coins more than twenty years ago, I noticed that most of them had shiny contact marks or breaks in the matte finish. This was the primary focus in grading the coins. Coin doctors came to address these grade limiting ‘shiny spots’ by stripping and/or resurfacing the coins. This was at the cost of ‘originality and, especially, the correct color of the coin, but the coins tended to grade higher that way.”

    Albanese has “seen rematted Proof gold coins. They are difficult to identify.” Like Andy, John emphasizes that “original Matte Proof coins tend to have more inconsistencies in color and may have shiny spots.”

    Lustig states that “shiny spots and orange [coppery] spots are encouraging signs when determining the originality of Matte Proof gold coins.” I agree.

    I recommend that collectors tend towards “Matte Proof” gold coins that have inconsistencies in color, dark spots, shiny spots and/or coppery areas. Of course, original coins may be overgraded or may have other problems. It is important to consult experts, though, sadly, some experts will gladly sell, without explanation, certified Matte Proof gold coins with very much unnatural color and/or extensively modified surfaces.

    III. Original 1912 Set

    Evidently, this set of 1912 “Matte Proof” Gold coins had hardly been touched since being acquired from the Philadelphia Mint in 1912. Indeed, sources suggest that it may very well have been owned by the same family from 1912 to 2013, for more than a century!

    lb matte 1912 10 Sandblast ‘Matte Proof’ Gold Coins: Original 1912 Set auctioned during Autumn Long Beach Expo“During the winter, this guy calls me out of nowhere,” John Albanese recollects, “from somewhere in upstate New York, and tells me that he has a 1912 Proof set of gold coins. He said that the coins had been in his family for decades. I was skeptical. I was concerned that they may be Chinese-made forgeries or severely cleaned, genuine coins.” Albanese did not buy this set and did not handle its placement as an auction consignment.

    Eventually, this set of four 1912 “Matte Proof” coins was consigned to Heritage. Albanese did not see them until they were later submitted to the CAC, after they were PCGS certified. John was “pleasantly surprised” when he saw these coins.

    This consignment did not include any other rarities, though did include a few modern coins. The name of the family that owned the set has not been publicly revealed.

    IV. 1912 $2½ Gold Coin

    The PCGS certified “Proof-66+” 1912 Quarter Eagle in this set sold for $41,125. As already mentioned, all four coins in this set are CAC approved. I have not seen them. This a moderate price, maybe slightly strong.

    In Jan. 2012, Heritage auctioned a PCGS certified “Proof-66” 1912 Quarter Eagle, which, like this one, has a CAC sticker. That 1912 sold for $29,900. This 1912, though, in addition to being extremely fresh and original, is the only 1912 Quarter Eagle that is PCGS certified “Proof-66+.” Seven are certified as “Proof-66” and three are PCGS certified as “Proof-67.”

    Certified Proof 1911 Quarter Eagles are worth almost as much as certified Proof 1912 Quarter Eagles. Over the last five years, five PCGS certified “Proof-66” 1911 Quarter Eagles have been auctioned for less than $30,000 each. Certified Proof 1913 Quarter Eagles are worth a little more than equivalent certified Proof 1912 Quarter Eagles. In Nov. 2010, Spectrum-B&M auctioned a PCGS certified Proof-66 1913, with a CAC sticker, for $34,500.

    Because this 1912 has a ‘plus grade’ and so few certified Matte Proof gold coins are graded 66+, it is particularly difficult to figure a market price level for this coin, especially since its originality and freshness should be worth a substantial premium. (Please see a past article, What Are Auction Prices.) For $41,125, this 1912 is a very good deal, in comparison to prices for other sandblast “Matte Proof” Quarter Eagles.

    V. 1912 $5 Gold Coin

    The PCGS certified and CAC approved “Proof-66” 1912 Half Eagle sold for $58,750. This auction result is somewhat strong, a price in the low end to middle of the retail price range. The PCGS price guide retail value of “$75,000” is a little high, an over-estimate.

    Heritage auctioned another PCGS certified and CAC approved “Proof-66” 1912 Half Eagle, in Oct. 2012. That one sold for $49,937.50, though I am not sure that it scores as high as this one in the category of originality.

    lb matte 1912 20 Sandblast ‘Matte Proof’ Gold Coins: Original 1912 Set auctioned during Autumn Long Beach Expo“Matte Proof” Half Eagles of 1911 and of 1913 are worth about the same as corresponding Half Eagles of 1912. In Aug. 2011, Stack’s-Bowers auctioned the Eliasberg 1911 Half Eagle, which is also PCGS certified and CAC stickered, “Proof-66.” I saw it. My notes in 2011 regarding this coin consist of four words, “fabulous, just indescribably cool!” The Eliasberg 1911 brought $46,000 in Aug. 2011.

    Even if market levels for these are a little higher now, the $46,000 price then was slightly weak and the current price of $58,750 for a different coin, with the same certification and CAC approval, is somewhat strong. Both coins were fresh and from non-dealer consignments.

    VI. 1912 $10 Gold Coin

    The PCGS certified and CAC approved “Proof-66” 1912 Eagle in this set sold for $94,000. In Oct. 2012, Heritage auctioned a PCGS certified “Proof-66” 1913, without a CAC sticker, for $82,250. The 1912 and 1913 “Matte Proof” issues of Eagles are worth about the same.

    In Nov. 2010, Stack’s auctioned a PCGS certified and CAC approved “Proof-66” 1913 Eagle for $80,500. It, too, came from a non-dealer consignment, the “W. L. Carson Collection,” which had been ‘off the market’ for many years.

    As for the 1912 that is part of the set being discussed, $94,000 seems to be a strong price for it. I wish I had seen this coin.

    VII. 1912 $20 Gold Coin

    The PCGS certified “Proof-66+” 1912 Double Eagle in this set sold for $164,500. These are rare. Although the PCGS CoinFacts site estimates that there are forty-nine, I suggest that not more than forty survive. Some of the same coins have been resubmitted multiple times to the PCGS for grading.

    The PCGS certified“Proof-66” 1912 that Stack’s-Bowers sold in March 2013 for $117,500 is the same as the the PCGS certified “Proof-67” 1912 that Heritage sold on Aug. 9, 2013 for $211,500. I saw it in March 2013. I was not thrilled about the coin; the color just seemed too uniform and it had more of a beige tint than I would expect on “Matte Proof” 1912 Double Eagles. Further, the relief of the devices is far from optimal. I was not sure about that coin. I am a little surprised that it was upgraded from 66 to 67 by the PCGS.

    There are high resolution images of both coins and the other PCGS certified “Proof-66+” 1912 Double Eagle on the PCGS CoinFacts site. My hunch is that this one is more desirable than the other that is PCGS certified “Proof-66+.” Moreover, this one is likely to be preferable to the just mentioned piece that is PCGS certified as “Proof-67” and was recently in a holder with a PCGS “Proof-66“ certification. It is probably true that this $164,500 auction result, for the “66+” coin from an original set, is both a fair price and a good deal for the buyer.

    Link to article
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Here's a description from relaxn's link:

    The article indicates there are three kinds of matte proofs: sandblast, Roman, and satin. Sandblast proofs were done post striking, but still within the Mint:



    << <i>Sandblast Finish (“Matte Proof”) gold coins were sprayed with pellets, presumably of sand, while the metal was still hot. >>

  • I just read part of the PCGS article and it seems to suggest the 1912 and on were actually blasted coin, but prior perhaps sandblasted dies and pickling? I read it because I was not sure these were blasted after striking (re "PMD" comment) - never read for sure one way or the other. I love this finish - imagine they seem heavy in the hand and look bigger/substantial.

    Eric

    There is also the Roman finish.
  • rmpsrpmsrmpsrpms Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i> and I do not think this would be consider PMD or even Post strike.. The sand blasting was done either to the planchet before the strike or it was done to the die... there are more knowledgeable people here than I on this matter. I am fairly certain, though, the "sandblasting" process would occur before the striking of the actual coin. >>



    By my understanding, the mint tech grabbed the coin directly after striking and held it under a stream of coarse sand for some amount of time.

    Even in the materials you quoted it says something to this effect:



    << <i>Sandblast Finish (“Matte Proof”) gold coins were sprayed with pellets, presumably of sand, while the metal was still hot. Coins with a similar finish were struck in some European nations during the late 19th century and/or early 20th century. To a significant extent, U.S. Mint officials followed the lead of Europeans, in regard to producing “Matte Proofs,” though European “Matte Proof” coins tend to differ from U.S. “Matte Proof” coins. The methods of manufacture were not entirely the same. >>

    PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:

    http://macrocoins.com
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,110 ✭✭✭✭✭
    only thing better would be matte reverse proofs. Nice set.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • RelaxnRelaxn Posts: 848 ✭✭✭✭
    I was reading it as if the sandblasting was done in the annealing stage and not PM.

    Sandblast Finish (“Matte Proof”) gold coins were sprayed with pellets, presumably of sand, while the metal was still hot. I read this quote to referencing the Annealing stage of coining?

    Is RWB Or Eureka around that can confirm or deny this?
  • ZoinsZoins Posts: 33,811 ✭✭✭✭✭
    RWB is available ATS and he might respond there if made aware of this thread.
  • RelaxnRelaxn Posts: 848 ✭✭✭✭
    O.k. RWB in his book states that the sandblasting process was done to the coin just before it was sold. So, I stand Corrected. Cool.

    However, today in order to get that satin look they blast the die... as discussed in this article:

    Proof Dies
  • derrybderryb Posts: 36,110 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Sandblast Finish (“Matte Proof”) gold coins were sprayed with pellets, presumably of sand, while the metal was still hot. >>


    This is correct. Since the details are also a matte finish, I assume it was done immediately after the coin was struck.

    The decline from democracy to tyranny is both a natural and inevitable one.

  • rmpsrpmsrmpsrpms Posts: 1,817 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sandblasting done on the planchet prior to striking would not result in a sandblast finish on the struck coin. The finish of the die (almost) completely dominates the finish of the coin. If the dies were sandblasted it would be another story, but it would still not result in the finish of these coins. Notice on the incuse areas (especially lettering) of the two Pratt Indians there is some evidence of lack of sandblasting. The only Matte Gold coin I have seen in the flesh showed nearly mirror finish, or at least less sandblasted, in the incuse areas of the devices. If the die were sandblasted, these areas would actually receive more sandblasting than the flat areas since the incuse areas of the coin are raised on the die.
    PM me for coin photography equipment, or visit my website:

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  • jmski52jmski52 Posts: 22,299 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Thank you for posting these. It's not something a collector sees every day, so it's a great education!image
    Q: Are You Printing Money? Bernanke: Not Literally

    I knew it would happen.
  • Timbuk3Timbuk3 Posts: 11,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    !!!!image
    Timbuk3
  • TreashuntTreashunt Posts: 6,747 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Beautiful, but...

    am I the only one to wonder how that St Gaudens got a 66 with the surface disruption on the reverse eagle?
    Frank

    BHNC #203

  • kazkaz Posts: 9,052 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Fascinating reading. I'm sure those coins have to be seen in person to be fully appreciated.

    Also,

    "I note that that original Matte Proof gold coins are often of a mustard color, in many instances like the color of Gulden’s Spicy Brown mustard and, in other cases, similar to the color of Grey Poupon Dijon mustard. " (Much like that stain on your shirt?)

    There's no getting away from mustard in numismatics, is there?image
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    They are attractive, though I prefer the non-matte proofs.... Cheers, RickO
  • WeissWeiss Posts: 9,934 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From the same period, and I believe the same technique...

    image
    We are like children who look at print and see a serpent in the last letter but one, and a sword in the last.
    --Severian the Lame
  • coindudeonebaycoindudeonebay Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    Because RWB still loves you.

    "There were two versions of gold proofs made for collectors from 1908-1916: sandblast and satin. There is no such thing as a "Roman" proof except in the imagination of Wally Breen who invented the term because he did not do the research to learn what the mint really did. Unfortunately, this error is perpetuated by copycat work in the "CoinWeek" column quoted extensively.

    Satin proof – made on a medal press using new dies. Defect-free planchets, no special pre- or post-strike treatment. Satin surface is that of the new dies.

    Sandblast proof – made on a medal press using new dies. Defect-free planchets, no special pre-strike treatment. Coin was sandblasted individually after striking. (NOT while it was still warm – temperature of the coin made no difference.)

    Sandblasted surface was very delicate and every slight post-sandblasting mark was obvious. There are minor differences from year to year and within years because this was a manual process. Also, the surfaces of new dies changed subtly as they were used.

    For details, so to Renaissance of American Coinage 1905-1908."
  • RelaxnRelaxn Posts: 848 ✭✭✭✭
    When I said the sandblasting was the last thing done before the coin was sold... I just meant it was the last step done before the coin went out the door.

    Please extend a thank you to RWB.

    John
  • Now I know there is no such thing as Roman finish - thanks! I was reading a date by date analysis of matte gold by Mike De Falco and believed it existed.

    Eric

    Edit: This is was I was reading THE EPITOME OF THE MINTER’S CRAFT

    MATTE & ROMAN FINISH PROOF INDIAN QUARTER EAGLES, A DATE-BY-DATE ANALYSIS

    By Mike De Falco, Numismatic Enterprises
  • LanceNewmanOCCLanceNewmanOCC Posts: 19,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    .
    love em!!
    .

    <--- look what's behind the mask! - cool link 1/NO ~ 2/NNP ~ 3/NNC ~ 4/CF ~ 5/PG ~ 6/Cert ~ 7/NGC 7a/NGC pop~ 8/NGCF ~ 9/HA archives ~ 10/PM ~ 11/NM ~ 12/ANACS cert ~ 13/ANACS pop - report fakes 1/ACEF ~ report fakes/thefts 1/NCIS - Numi-Classes SS ~ Bass ~ Transcribed Docs NNP - clashed coins - error training - V V mm styles -

  • coindudeonebaycoindudeonebay Posts: 1,735 ✭✭✭
    Again, from RWB:

    "
    Pedigreed


    Registered: 01/03/05
    Posts: 5784
    "Because RWB still loves you."
    --- funny! :)

    The whole satin & sandblast proof mess started because the new gold designs were not evenly basined which meant that mirror proofs could not be made. (Same for the 1916 silver designs.) In order to produce something special for coin collectors, the engraving department decided to finish coins using a medal finishing process: sandblasting. This was fine for high relief medals, but produced a very flat surface on low relief coins, and this tended to suppress detail on a coin. (The abrasive of choice was emery. This created sharp pits in a gold coin’s surface, which sparkled gently under strong light.) The Philadelphia Mint superintendent, Adam Joyce, did not like sandblasting coins because it made them too different from normal pieces to allow leftovers to be put into circulation. Hundreds of extra 1908 gold proofs were melted and that created additional bookkeeping headaches.

    Gold collectors were not fond of sandblast proofs and so the mint shifted to satin – which was nothing more than omitting the sandblasting. Collectors again objected because the coins were not distinctly different from normal circulation strikes except in detail and absence of “luster.” William Woodin worked out a return to sandblast with Assistant Treasurer Andrew in late 1910.

    Sandblast coins were the product of manual operations and took too much time to apply to the 1916 silver coins. Thus, the new mint director approved Joyce’s suggestion to discontinue all special coins for collectors.

    (Sandblasted commemoratives are known along with some 1921 and 1922 Peace dollars. These were samples made for official review and approval, and not issued for collectors. Some ended up as souvenirs for Philadelphia Mint and Mint HQ officials.)"

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