If you could have a shot at just one of these Monster Morgan Dollars ... which would you pick and wh

WingedLiberty1957 · February 22, 2014 11:50PM

JhonECash used to sell toned coins a long time ago, but he still maintains an archive of monster Morgans he sold here ...

JhonECash Monster Morgans

If you could have a shot at buying just one of these coins, which would you go for and why?

What specific characteristics "talk to you" in the one you selected.

If your answer is "none, I think they are all cooked" that's fine as well ... I realize that toning is not everyone's cup of tea.

Here is a screen capture in case you are too lazy/rushed to click through (though bigger images of each coin are available on the linked page above).

Note that only the coins listed at the top have their old prices shown (though none of the coins are actually available today).

I would have been interested to see his list price on all of these, but that is lost information at this point.

CoinRaritiesOnline · February 22, 2014 11:55PM

I like Salamander because it looks most natural to me.

morgansforever · February 22, 2014 11:58PM

I like the "lightning bolt", because I was indirectly struck by lightning about 10 years ago.

Zoins · February 23, 2014 12:01AM

"The Moose" because it jumps out at me. I've always liked the look of that coin.

keyman64 · February 23, 2014 12:04AM

I would start with grade first. There are two PCGS MS68s that I noticed. There are plenty of nice MS66 and MS67 examples. I would also go with my preferred brand of holder. I would then want to look at them in hand to find the ones with the cleanest of cheeks. Then I would evaluate the date/mm. Then and only then would I evaluate the color. So I guess the process would be a little more complex for me although many look very nice from the small photos.

crypto79 · February 23, 2014 12:06AM

If they were giving them away for free/melt I would take Christmas tree but not really my thing.

Even to these eyes most look decidedly NT and most are attractive enough, I just don't like the market or markups as they tend not to be quite as logical as the type markets. The whims of a fickle and emotional collector base is not what I want the shady 2 way market built on to preserve an investment.

BillJones · February 23, 2014 12:08AM

I would pass on all of them because I can't justify paying the prices for this type of material. Add to that the fact that some of them don't look natural to me at all.

BryceM · February 23, 2014 12:15AM

So, where are the gorgeous reverse toners?

It always bothers me a little that I see 3:1 nice obverse vs reverse toned Morgans. Seems to me that there are only a few potential possibilities here:

1. My observation is incorrect and there are actually equal numbers of each.
2. The obverse tones more nicely due to its physical properties.
3. Pretty reverse toners get no respect and therefore nobody posts them or gives them names.
4. Coin docs preferentially AT Morgan obverses.
5. Some combination of the above.

I really like many of these and they're fun to look at when I see them in dealers cases, but I can't bring myself to pay a huge toning premium to acquire them. Most of them just seem a little "over the top" when I compare them to color photos of Morgan toners from books from the 1970s. Maybe the art of photography wasn't as advanced at the time, maybe more recent photos are juiced a bit. Some of these just don't seem natural to my inexperienced, mostly naïve eye.

TONEDDOLLARS · February 23, 2014 12:25AM

Those coins were not all from his inventory. Some those were my coins sold directly to another collector on these boards who still owns them. As a matter of fact those coins pictured belong to this same collector. I'm sure when he see's this post will speak up

rays · February 23, 2014 12:25AM

I own one Morgan dollar: this one I got from Brandon over 10 years ago, when he was with Adrian. The color is more vibrant than the picture suggests. I think I paid 80X bid for it.

WingedLiberty1957 · February 23, 2014 12:31AM

<< Those coins were not all from his inventory. Some those were my coins sold directly to another collector on these boards who still owns them. As a matter of fact those coins pictured belong to this same collector. I'm sure when he see's this post will speak up >>

Well that's interesting. I wonder how those ended up on his website. Kind of misleading.

Type2 · February 23, 2014 12:32AM

I'll take blue suede but i will try to find one in a BM raw 1st befor i pay big $$$ for one. But thats just me Type2 thinking.

MGLICKER · February 23, 2014 12:38AM

I rarely pay more than a 10% premium for post mint improvements.

Would have to pass on that group.

ElmerFusterpuck · February 23, 2014 12:55AM

I'm partial to the darker spectrum of toning, so I lean towards ones like Greengenta, Nightshade, Black Magic and Black Mamba. Twilight is beyond cool! I also prefer screaming luster over the proof-like coins too.

I've seen a handful of these coins at major shows over the last decade and they do 'pop' when seen in person. I know that these coins aren't for everyone, but it most cases you will find a willing buyer when they do become available. Check out the 1880-S PCGS MS-66 textile monster Morgan that sold in the Feb. 2014 Legend-Morphy auction; I saw that one in person and drooled for the next two days.

Sonorandesertrat · February 23, 2014 12:57AM

I remember seeing some of those coins when they were for sale. None of them were what I would call 'have to have' coins. Prices were in the $2,000-$7,000 range.
Some of those images look juiced.

You might want to also check out some old threads by searching for 'Sonnier.' Legend bought Bryan Sonnier's collection in 2009 and began actively marketing the coins in early 2010, as I recall.
There are other collections too. Before considering an initial purchase, I would look at hundreds of such coins to decide what characteristics seem to be line with various price ranges.

Regarding coins like these, what matters most is color. This will determine the bulk of the value, rather than the grade on the insert (e.g., don't be concerned whether the grade is 65 or 66). A very heavy dose of marketing is needed to sell most of these coins too. Hence the names.

DennisH · February 23, 2014 12:57AM

None of them.
I am not a fan of toning and I would not pay more than a few dollars extra for even very special color.

pcunix · February 23, 2014 1:14AM

<< None of them.
I am not a fan of toning and I would not pay more than a few dollars extra for even very special color. >>

I'm with you. AT or NT, I don't like 'em.

AUandAG · February 23, 2014 1:19AM

<< I would pass on all of them because I can't justify paying the prices for this type of material. Add to that the fact that some of them don't look natural to me at all. >>

ricko · February 23, 2014 1:24AM

Pass on all of them (no surprise).... for the tarnish lovers, this is a smorgasbord though.... Cheers, RickO

SeattleSlammer · February 23, 2014 1:27AM

If you believe these to be AT then you don't know NT and you should stay away from toners in general.

I'll take The Moose everyday and twice on Sundays, please.

bluelobster · February 23, 2014 1:38AM

I like NT toning, prefer it over white any day, but it would be tough to pay huge premiums.

That being said, like some other's have said, I like The "moose"

DaveWcoins · February 23, 2014 1:42AM

Put me down for the "wild end roller twin pair".

Fun exercise!

Baley · February 23, 2014 2:02AM

<< So, where are the gorgeous reverse toners?

It always bothers me a little that I see 3:1 nice obverse vs reverse toned Morgans. Seems to me that there are only a few potential possibilities here:

1. My observation is incorrect and there are actually equal numbers of each.
2. The obverse tones more nicely due to its physical properties.
3. Pretty reverse toners get no respect and therefore nobody posts them or gives them names.
4. Coin docs preferentially AT Morgan obverses.
5. Some combination of the above.

I really like many of these and they're fun to look at when I see them in dealers cases, but I can't bring myself to pay a huge toning premium to acquire them. Most of them just seem a little "over the top" when I compare them to color photos of Morgan toners from books from the 1970s. Maybe the art of photography wasn't as advanced at the time, maybe more recent photos are juiced a bit. Some of these just don't seem natural to my inexperienced, mostly naïve eye. >>

I've thought much the same before. Plus, every single one is a common date, where are the better date reverse-toned monster toners?

the abundance of obverse toned common date Morgans, with bands of amber, pink, and blue neatly bisecting or framing the design, is telling, imo.

SeattleSlammer · February 23, 2014 2:09AM

<< 

<< So, where are the gorgeous reverse toners?

It always bothers me a little that I see 3:1 nice obverse vs reverse toned Morgans. Seems to me that there are only a few potential possibilities here:

1. My observation is incorrect and there are actually equal numbers of each.
2. The obverse tones more nicely due to its physical properties.
3. Pretty reverse toners get no respect and therefore nobody posts them or gives them names.
4. Coin docs preferentially AT Morgan obverses.
5. Some combination of the above.

I really like many of these and they're fun to look at when I see them in dealers cases, but I can't bring myself to pay a huge toning premium to acquire them. Most of them just seem a little "over the top" when I compare them to color photos of Morgan toners from books from the 1970s. Maybe the art of photography wasn't as advanced at the time, maybe more recent photos are juiced a bit. Some of these just don't seem natural to my inexperienced, mostly naïve eye. >>

I've thought much the same before. Plus, every single one is a common date, where are the better date reverse-toned monster toners?

the abundance of obverse toned common date Morgans, with bands of amber, pink, and blue neatly bisecting or framing the design, is telling, imo. >>

No, it's not 'telling.'
See my original reply.
Then educate yourself.

pennyannie · February 23, 2014 2:12AM

I would take "scunchie"

I could just imagine what would happen if those showed up at Ricko's house at 10 pm.

Justlooking · February 23, 2014 2:15AM

Christmas Tree, because it looks Christmasy.

lkeigwin · February 23, 2014 2:31AM

Here's a toned reverse I bought some years ago from Vic and Sheri B. Reverse toners are out there. But it does seem there are more colorful obverse ones.
Lance.

FullStrike · February 23, 2014 2:37AM

It just seems that one of the Coins should be called " Peter Max".

And another should have a faint image of the baby Jesus and mother Mary. Call that one the Messiah .
It could well become the first $20 million coin.

SoCalBigMark · February 23, 2014 2:38AM

Emerald City, nice group of Monsters!

coindeuce · February 23, 2014 2:52AM

"Christmas Tree" followed by "Black Magic" and "Green Ghost".

The first simply because the textile pattern across the portrait of Liberty tells me it is absolutely legit, the latter two because the alternation between sea green and ultraviolet floats my boat.

bolivarshagnasty · February 23, 2014 2:53AM

I DO like toned Morgans, and I would pick "Christmas Tree" or "Lightning Bolt" as my favs. The latter is in AB's collection. Probably others as well.
BTW- Is this Dealer still in business? It's hard to believe that I haven't ran across his toners.

TONEDDOLLARS · February 23, 2014 6:10AM

He is still in business. He deals in paper mostly. Brandon Kelley worked for him and took most if not all of those pictures.

nk1nk · February 23, 2014 8:18AM

I own bluegill, but there are several on there I would rather own. Too hard to pick just one.

Nick

OldIndianNutKase · February 23, 2014 8:30AM

I really like the "Pink Princess" because it's toning is very radial and does actually enhance the look of the coin. I don't like the ones with splotches of different colors here and there so much.

OINK

OldIndianNutKase · February 23, 2014 8:35AM

Zoins · February 23, 2014 9:22AM

Here's Brandon's photo of the Sirna Moose compared to two TrueViews. I'm posting this since the images to appear to be Brandon's images, he ran the coin business as Jhon E Cash for a while, and there's some insinuation these coins may not have been handled by Jhon E. Cash.

If you look go to the individual coin pages on Jhon E Cash's website, there is a slab photo for each coin and that is something that I've seen at both places were Brandon worked, Jhon E. Cash and Anaconda, so I get the impression that the coins were present, at least for photography purposes.

The coin a few of us pointed out, The Sirna Moose, is currently in two Registry Sets and has two TrueViews, the current The Simpson-Sunnywood Collection of Toned Morgan Dollars and the historical Sunnywood's "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" Toned Morgans - 21st.

Usually when the Moose photos are presented, its seems popular to post Brandon's obverse image with a TrueView. Which do you like the best? Also which do you think matches the slab photo the best?

AuroraBorealis · February 23, 2014 9:23AM

Cool thread Wingedliberty! Just so that it clears up a few questions Brandon(poorguy) on here used to work for Jhon before Brandon started up his own company... Over 30 of those coins I currently own and some where bought from that outfit and others I had sent to Brandon to have imaged for me that I had purchased else where... All those pics are from Brandon and are part of the article that he wrote while working there...
Seeing coins in hand of that caliber is the ONLY way to be positive which ones are true Monster Morgans... With that said my favorite one is "The Lightning Bolt" with Scrunchie, Black Opal, Christmas Tree, and Pop Monster very close seconds... With that said none of those are my very best and some I have renamed... I have never seen the Moose in hand but understand that it is an incredible coin... My guess is that it would probably go into the Godzilla category...

The Lightning Bolts incredible mirrored clean surfaces and that iridescent blue, fuchsia, and yellow is just beautiful and my kind of coin... The others that I mentioned all have a POP factor and colors off the charts and I love that....

AB

mkman123 · February 23, 2014 9:50AM

Doesn't toning eventual turn black?

Zoins · February 23, 2014 9:55AM

<< Doesn't toning eventual turn black? >>

Yes, but it may be slow enough that you can enjoy it for a long time.

It can turn faster if it's AT.

SamByrd · February 23, 2014 10:01AM

<< 

<< I would pass on all of them because I can't justify paying the prices for this type of material. Add to that the fact that some of them don't look natural to me at all. >>

>>

nail hit on the head ........

SeattleSlammer · February 23, 2014 10:11AM

The "some of them don't look natural" replies are, as you'd expect, lukewarm and nonspecific.
There is a ton of AT toning out there. But this ain't it.

CoinJunkie · February 23, 2014 10:38AM

<< Doesn't toning eventual turn black? >>

Only if left in contact with the toning agent.

vibr0nic · February 23, 2014 11:10AM

<< 

<< Doesn't toning eventual turn black? >>

Yes, but it may be slow enough that you can enjoy it for a long time.

It can turn faster if it's AT. >>

Help me out with the science behind the assertion that toning turns black over time. Toning is understood to be a result of accumulation of a contaminant binding to the surface of the coin (sulfur), and the resulting thin film interference creates the colors. Further, a study of thin film interference tells us that black terminal toning is a result of a very large accumulation while the bright colors are a result of less accumulation. So, if a coin is no longer exposed to sulfur (slabbed and properly stored), there would be no further accumulation of sulfur to change the color, or turn it black. So why would you expect the toning to turn black?

Zoins · February 23, 2014 1:32PM

<< 

<< 

<< Doesn't toning eventual turn black? >>

Yes, but it may be slow enough that you can enjoy it for a long time.

It can turn faster if it's AT. >>

Help me out with the science behind the assertion that toning turns black over time. Toning is understood to be a result of accumulation of a contaminant binding to the surface of the coin (sulfur), and the resulting thin film interference creates the colors. Further, a study of thin film interference tells us that black terminal toning is a result of a very large accumulation while the bright colors are a result of less accumulation. So, if a coin is no longer exposed to sulfur (slabbed and properly stored), there would be no further accumulation of sulfur to change the color, or turn it black. So why would you expect the toning to turn black? >>

I think this depends on the definition of "properly stored" as we know slabs are not air tight and there are known cases of coins changing appearance within slabs. My understanding is that if a coin is no longer exposed to chemical agents, i.e. stored in a vacuum, then the formation of silver oxide and silver sulfide may stop. And while collectors may attempt to achieve this with conventional means, none of the common methods are air tight and prevent the introduction of potential agents, though they seek to limit it. Even Intercept Shield products which seek to do this have been known to exhibit non-desirable behavior.

I don't believe there's consensus on this, but I base my statement on coins not being stored in a vacuum.

For a discussion on this, we have a more scientific analysis of toning and storage in this thread

<< well, there you have it .............depending on who owns the coin dictates whether or not if it continues to tone or not ! >>

Bochiman · February 23, 2014 1:48PM

None.
I like toned coins just fine.

I don't go for the cutesy names given. I don't think the prices are at a point where I would feel comfortable buying them (way too much of a premium for me).
I understand some folks do feel like they have to have cutesy names and are fine with that. I understand that, obviously, they were worth that price, or close to it, for some folks and I am fine with that.

Since the question goes to ME if I have a shot at them, then price and other things come into play....but, definitely, cutesy names are a turnoff to buying from that person/company/whatnot.

Zoins · February 23, 2014 1:49PM

<< Those coins were not all from his inventory. Some those were my coins sold directly to another collector on these boards who still owns them. As a matter of fact those coins pictured belong to this same collector. I'm sure when he see's this post will speak up >>

My impression is that not all the coins were from his inventory, but all the coins were photographed by Brandon who was in the employ of Jhon E Cash at the time, and thus Jhon or Brandon may own the copyright to those images depending on their employment arrangement.

In addition to AB's response that he had his coins photographed by Brandon and the fact the coins have Brandon's signature frontal and slab photos, Brandon put together the following articles while at Jhon E Cash:

- Sunnywood Toning Classification System
- Physics of the Toning Progression of Rainbow Morgans

The toning physics article shows this image with the caption (Photography by Brandon Kelley). This is the same image that appears in the Sunnywood "Somewhere Over the Rainbow" Toned Morgans registry set:

(Photography by Brandon Kelley)

Justacommeman · February 23, 2014 2:09PM

I don't own a Morgan but these are amazing. I'm with Slammer on this.

Black Mamba and Monster

MJ

ElmerFusterpuck · February 23, 2014 2:12PM

One thing I can say is that if Brandon took the photo, it was usually dead on. Every coin I've gotten from him has looked at least equal to his photos, and a few even better in hand. No juicing going on there at all.

vibr0nic · February 23, 2014 2:39PM

Zoins, thanks for the input and the quality thread you linked to.

I never answered WLs original question. I've mentioned in other threads that the Moose is "the one" for me, although I recently learned of another standing offer for the coin once Mr Simpson chooses to sell it and I don't think I will be it's next owner. Otherwise, I'd gladly pay up for most of these, but Deep Ellum, Texas Tea, Textile Summer, Nightshade and Santeria are some other favorites.

vibr0nic · February 23, 2014 2:43PM

<< None. I like toned coins just fine. I don't go for the cutesy names given. >>

You must admit, it makes it a lot easier to point them out in a discussion thread like this, though.

If you could have a shot at just one of these Monster Morgan Dollars ... which would you pick and wh

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