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Reholder issue

I sent in this Peace dollar to be re-holdered the week before Thanksgiving:

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I got a call today from PCGS saying that because the holder was damaged they could not guarantee the grade, and would I please give my authorization for this. I was not aware that they would not automatically reholder intact coins as the holder has obviously not been tampered with.

Comments

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Are they implying the holder was compromised and the coin may have been switched? Unless a plastic shard has scratched the coin, how could the grade not be the same?
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,691 ✭✭✭✭✭
    could it have been damaged in transit?

    ask to see a photo of it
    LCoopie = Les
  • Did they say what the damage was with the holder? The pictures look ok. Could something have happened to it in transit?
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Les beat me to it....

    You have before pictures...were those just prior to shipping out? Where is the damage in the holder that they are stating? Anything that should be able to be seen the way your photos were taken?
    How was it packaged? Could it have gotten damaged in transit or was it so well packaged that it was either damaged before shipping, or after?

    Ask them for photos like yours and photo of the damaged spot. If photos showing the obv/rev, similar to yours, shows a difference, then that is one thing to be concerned about. If the coin looks the same, they may take that into account.
    If the damage can't be seen from either photo view, then what are they finding? Something along the edge?

    I'd be cautious and concerned, as you are, as well.

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • dbcoindbcoin Posts: 2,200 ✭✭
    the green dot at 12 o'clock on the obverse by the "E", is that PVC? Is that the reason?
  • Alltheabove76Alltheabove76 Posts: 1,495 ✭✭✭
    Getting a coin reholdered for some reason now takes forever. It took 30 days from the day I overnighted two coins till I got them back recently.
  • panexpoguypanexpoguy Posts: 1,239 ✭✭✭✭✭
    From the image of the obverse, inside the raised border in the bottom and lower right of the coin there appears to be a brownish seam. Could this indicate the slab had been cracked and glued back together?
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    What's the story behind the coin and slab's condition? Did you get one?

    The coin has some surface contamination and should be conserved. It looks like PVC. I'll bet it can be rescued but may have to be dipped.

    The slab is a wreck too. Not just abraded but discolored. Almost as if the slab suffered water damage.

    My guess is PCGS thinks the slab has been compromised and it affected the coin.

    No way I would not just reholder it. The coin needs to be treated.
    Lance.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    P.S. If you give PCGS permission to reholder with no grade-guarantee it will come back in its harmed condition and a genuine slab. Don't do it. Ask for restoration and grading and accept no guarantee. It's your best bet.
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    You're asking us.,,


    Call and ask Pcgs what kind of damage there is, then go from there.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions


  • << <i>the green dot at 12 o'clock on the obverse by the "E", is that PVC? Is that the reason? >>



    Yes, it is. But it was there when the holder was in better condition and it sold at Heritage in 2007...

    http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?hdnJumpToLot=1&saleNo=453&lotNo=8972&x=0&y=0#12401240832

    I suspect someone with a clue will honor the guarantee the longer you holdout and demand escalation.
  • dbcoindbcoin Posts: 2,200 ✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>the green dot at 12 o'clock on the obverse by the "E", is that PVC? Is that the reason? >>



    Yes, it is. But it was there when the holder was in better condition and it sold at Heritage in 2007...

    http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?hdnJumpToLot=1&saleNo=453&lotNo=8972&x=0&y=0#12401240832

    I suspect someone with a clue will honor the guarantee the longer you holdout and demand escalation. >>



    interesting history on this coin. Will be curious to see what happens. Not sure I would have bought it for that price in 2007 with that visible PVC damage. The same coin being sold in 2007 does not preclude that the holder may have been damaged before that and this coin swapped in. Maybe Heritage did not pick it up back then. So who is liable? Too bad they didn't have SecurePlus scans back then.


  • << <i>interesting history on this coin. Will be curious to see what happens. Not sure I would have bought it for that price in 2007 with that visible PVC damage. The same coin being sold in 2007 does not preclude that the holder may have been damaged before that and this coin swapped in. Maybe Heritage did not pick it up back then. So who is liable? Too bad they didn't have SecurePlus scans back then. >>



    Sadly that would mean they missed it in 2005 too...

    http://coins.ha.com/c/item.zx?hdnJumpToLot=1&saleNo=389&lotNo=8815&x=0&y=0#Photo
  • The coin has two auction appearances with Heritage... 11-7-05 and 11-13-07. Type in the certification number on the PCGS site and you will see both auctions. The coin had the green spot as far back as the 2005 auction. The spot doesn't seem to have grown any since then.
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It is not just the green spot. That is only a small indication of the PVC. Take a good look at the surfaces. Notice the cloudy areas...around and to the right of the date, the hair over Liberty's ear, the neck. eagle's wing and to the right. Many other areas.

    The coin has been covered in PVC haze for at least several years. PVC does its damage over a very long period. And it is likely this coin can be rescued. But it needs treatment, not just reholdering.

    Pix from the '07 auction, and OP's pix follow.
    Lance.

    imageimage
    imageimage
  • MsMorrisineMsMorrisine Posts: 32,123 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ask them about the damage first. Maybe it is a postal claim issue.

    Current maintainer of Stone's Master List of Favorite Websites // My BST transactions


  • << <i>CU apparently closed for the weekend early, I was going to ask them to send it back to me since a downgrade is not what I had in mind. The dealer who sold it to me had this response: "The guy who owned it before tried to clean the plastic case. The coin is fine. Send it to NGC if they give you a hard time". >>



    Couple things I find interesting about this...

    I sell a fair number of coins. If I sold a coin in no-problem PCGS plastic at no-problem money and PCGS told my customer they weren't going to guarantee the coin – I'd want the coin back. I'd want the coin back to the point of re-embursing the customer for any money they were out so that I could deal with PCGS personally.

    Also, why do you want the coin back? If there is no real damage to the slab (anything could account for contamination of the coin) you owe it to yourself and other collectors to hold some feet to the fire.
  • 19Lyds19Lyds Posts: 26,470 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is not just the green spot. That is only a small indication of the PVC. Take a good look at the surfaces. Notice the cloudy areas...around and to the right of the date, the hair over Liberty's ear, the neck. eagle's wing and to the right. Many other areas.

    The coin has been covered in PVC haze for at least several years. PVC does its damage over a very long period. And it is likely this coin can be rescued. But it needs treatment, not just reholdering.

    Pix from the '07 auction, and OP's pix follow.
    Lance.

    imageimage
    imageimage >>

    I do not think that this is a fair comparison Lance since the OP's photo's are obviously not of the same quality as the Heritage photo's plus its through a slab which someone attempted to clean.
    I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.



    The name is LEE!
  • BochimanBochiman Posts: 25,284 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>CU apparently closed for the weekend early, I was going to ask them to send it back to me since a downgrade is not what I had in mind. The dealer who sold it to me had this response: "The guy who owned it before tried to clean the plastic case. The coin is fine. Send it to NGC if they give you a hard time". >>



    Lame response from the dealer to say "send it to NGC".
    You bought it as PCGS, you paid good money for it. If PCGS is saying there is an issue with the holder, and the dealer KNEW/KNOWS about an issue with the holder before selling it to you, then he should either take it back for 100% refund (and, a good dealer would refund you your PCGS costs...or split with you), or take on the onus if PCGS downgrades the coin...if he is willing to stand behind what he sold and all parties can be sure nothing was done to it between when he sold it and PCGS cracks it out....
    Now, that is assuming it is a good dealer....

    I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment

  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It is not just the green spot. That is only a small indication of the PVC. Take a good look at the surfaces. Notice the cloudy areas...around and to the right of the date, the hair over Liberty's ear, the neck. eagle's wing and to the right. Many other areas.

    The coin has been covered in PVC haze for at least several years. PVC does its damage over a very long period. And it is likely this coin can be rescued. But it needs treatment, not just reholdering.

    Pix from the '07 auction, and OP's pix follow.
    Lance.

    >>



    How could it have picked up PVC haze if it was in the PCGS holder all this time? If it truly had haze then it would have been on there at the time PCGS slabbed it, unless PVC haze is like milk spotting and shows up some time after the coin has been removed from the PVC flip.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>PCGS' guarantee does not cover issues that develop after the coin is put in the holder, since it may not have progressed noticeably, the guarantee path may be advisable at some point. >>



    Is that retroactive back to the time when this one was slabbed?
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That's a good question. I don't know the answer. Maybe someone else does.

    Remember back in late 2009 when PCGS made a public announcement (on this forum, and elsewhere) that they would no longer guarantee copper color? PCGS made it clear that the new policy was effective 2010 for any copper coin sold or traded after 1/1/10. I.e., if you could prove you owned the coin prior to then, color was still guaranteed. There was a bit of an uproar. At least here. A lot of folks were vocal (including me).

    Sometime in the recent past PCGS amended their guarantee to exclude coins that turn in the holder (PVC, spotting, corrosion, hazing, etc.). I don't remember any announcement. I don't know if it applies as of a certain date and/or if there are any exclusions.

    If a coin I owned for years turned, I certainly would talk to PCGS about it. When the coin was graded a guarantee was in place. I don't think it can be summarily dismissed, retroactively.
    Lance.

    P.S. I think it is a very good idea to use PCGS's inventory software to track your collection. It might be useful if you ever had to prove when you acquired a coin.
  • BAJJERFANBAJJERFAN Posts: 30,977 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>They just let me know that they would reholder the coin in the same grade. If I wanted it restored/conserved I would have to pay for that. >>



    What exactly would they be conserving/restoring?

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