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Philadelphia Morgan dollar with a mintmark

I've often wondered what caused the ghost image of a mintmark, if you will, on many 1899 Philadelphia Morgans I have seen. On this example and others, it is between the top left of the letter O in the word 'dollar' and the bottom of the bow wreath; it is actually on the coin, not just the digital image. In my opinion, it appears to resemble a letter O. Any thoughts, comments, or opinions would sure be appreciated. This coin is in a PCGS holder, so feel free to GTG; opinions welcome!


image
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--Craig

Comments

  • keyman64keyman64 Posts: 15,452 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I see it as a "C" but you would have to provide better photos of the area.
    "If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64
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  • MICHAELDIXONMICHAELDIXON Posts: 6,373 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It might have been a working die for the New Orleans mint, which was shipped to Philadelphia and the mintmark was ground off for their usage.
    Spring National Battlefield Coin Show is April 12-13, 2024 at the Eisenhower Hotel in Gettysburg, PA. WWW.AmericasCoinShows.com
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,146 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>It might have been a working die for the New Orleans mint, which was shipped to Philadelphia and the mintmark was ground off for their usage. >>



    That would be difficult since it's recessed on a working die
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    There is also a ghost O below the T in United. Between the T and the wreath.

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com


  • << <i>

    << <i>It might have been a working die for the New Orleans mint, which was shipped to Philadelphia and the mintmark was ground off for their usage. >>



    That would be difficult since it's recessed on a working die >>



    TDN is correct: Over mintmark process involves over stamping or filling in similar to a cavity in a tooth much like the famous 1875 s/cc. Fillings falling out lend themselves to partial MM/voids not Ghost Images
    image
  • rickoricko Posts: 98,724 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The mark below the T looks like an 8..... interesting.. Cheers, RickO
  • Now I see a face, wearing a beret, next to the T. Been staring at this coin too long, I suppose...
    --Craig
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Yep, see the beret, too!

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • Thanks for validating that, Bob. Glad to know it's not just me. PCGS MS64, by the way.
    --Craig
  • MWallaceMWallace Posts: 3,832 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also have a Morgan Dollar that has a faint, almost invisible, "S" mint mark. I don't recall the date. I'll see if I can dig it out later today.
  • DennisHDennisH Posts: 13,963 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I also have a Morgan Dollar that has a faint, almost invisible, "S" mint mark. I don't recall the date. I'll see if I can dig it out later today. >>

    That happens with 1921-S VAM 6B... the mint mark fills in to the point that the S is completely gone. They can occasionally be found in 1921-P holders.
    When in doubt, don't.
  • So it even fools the graders? Crazy. I looked at this picture for, I swear, hours before I pulled the trigger to buy. Nice guy from Jersey who thought it deserved a 65. Me too.
    --Craig
  • what about a die clash?
  • DaveGDaveG Posts: 3,535
    Here's some wisdom from Roger Burdette, imported from ATS:


    [There's a] persistent misunderstanding about how visible over/dates and over/mintmarks, etc. happen.

    These are done on soft dies – never hard ones.

    First, the whole “grinding off” business very rarely happened. This has been the “best guess” because the ‘inside’ processes and/or language were not understood.

    The easiest to understand is simple punching of a different letter or numeral where one already exists. For example a 2/1 overdate…. Here, the 1 was correctly punched into a working die. At some later time, it was decided to change the 1 to a 2 – maybe to keep a die in use into a new calendar year or resurrect a used die, etc….the reason does not matter. Up to about 1810 or so, attempts to hide the original 1 were minimal. Some metal routinely squished and moved so that parts of the 1 were filled in, but other places did not completely fill. Gravers were used to move surface metal around in attempts to hide the overdate. This often resulted in a very clear 2/1 overdate.

    The next process is more complicated but produces a much better working die. It is one of several techniques engravers and diesinkers used to repair working dies and master dies/hubs. Let’s take the same 2/1 overdate with correctly punched 1. Instead of just punching in a 2, we first use a graving tool to deepen and slightly undercut the cavity created by the 1 punch. Next we warm the die to a dull red and fill the 1 with white hot iron or steel wire, pushing it tightly into the 1 gaps, and manually leveling the surface as best we can. After the die cools, we abrade the entire die surface so it is smooth and uniform. The die is then punched with the 2 in the correct place. The punch helps to set the iron wire more tightly mechanically than we could with just the graving tool. Any surface spill is abraded off at the numeral position.

    This second process can result in dies that have clear underdates – if the fill didn’t hold or was poorly done. But most of the time, the result was a die that made perfect or near-perfect coins. Many more 1880/79 dollar dies were likely repaired this way than VAMpires have discovered – just because the underdate cannot be seen. Over mintmarks – O/CC for example – were created the same way. Partially visible underdates result from the repair being incomplete or partially failing during use. The “outlines” sometimes seen, result from incomplete bonding between the die steel and the fill – this can leave minute crevasses that widen during use.

    When the U S Mint switched to direct reduction of master hubs in 1907, repunching of incorrect numbers and letters became obsolete. Modern Mint engravers have never worked this way and cannot describe the process. This technique died with Charles Barber (1917) and George Morgan.

    [See: From Mine to Mint for details and information on how edge dies were made.]



    From Mine to Mint by Roger Burdette, a truly awesome book about the inside workings of the 19th century Mint, is available from Wizard Coin Supply!

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  • Thank you DaveG, very informative. One last question on this coin - has anyone seen another with the two extra marks in the 'T' in Liberty? Since this is incused, theywere likely two raised areas on the die. Any thoughts?
    --Craig
  • messydeskmessydesk Posts: 19,642 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The subject coin looks like VAM 5 (there are only a few die pairs known for 1899). No mention of this artifact you see, nor does it show up on any of the photos on VAMWorld. You may simply have some very light pitting on the die in just the right place.
  • Thanks, John. I have searched vamworld previously and didn't find a match. Thanks also for the attribution
    --Craig

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