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Incredible Barber 50c clash -- real or fake?

This 1912 Barber half dollar shows the strongest possible die clash.

Link

There is complete transfer of the design on each die face to the field and low-lying portions of the opposite die. There are even clash marks of the denticles.

Has anyone seen a Barber clash similar to this? From the photos, I see no indication that this planchet was struck by heavily clashed counterfeit dies. Still, the rather heavy wear leaves me a bit uncertain.

There is a 2000-P nickel with a clash as strong as this, so it's not physically impossible.

-- Mike Diamond
Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.

Comments

  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭
    Looks incused. Probably smashed with another coin in a vise.

    Edit: just kidding, that's really weird. The incused part goes under the devices image
  • AUandAGAUandAG Posts: 24,515 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Wicked, have never seen anything remotely similar!

    bobimage
    Registry: CC lowballs (boblindstrom), bobinvegas1989@yahoo.com
  • commoncents05commoncents05 Posts: 10,077 ✭✭✭
    Looks legit to me.

    -Paul
    Many Quality coins for sale at http://www.CommonCentsRareCoins.com
  • stealerstealer Posts: 3,968 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Looks legit to me.

    -Paul >>


    It'd be quite a steal if it turns out to be real.
  • WoodenJeffersonWoodenJefferson Posts: 6,491 ✭✭✭✭
    Boy...ain't that something...and for $46 bucks!
    Chat Board Lingo

    "Keep your malarkey filter in good operating order" -Walter Breen
  • MFHMFH Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭

    That's the largest die clash Half I have seen.

    Post the image to the Mega Barber Thread.
    Some Barberites might miss it in its own thread.

    Great pick up.
    Mike Hayes
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !

    New Barber Purchases
  • Batman23Batman23 Posts: 4,999 ✭✭✭✭✭
    That is a very impressive clash. I would like to see one of these in AU-MS condition.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭


    << <i>That's the largest die clash Half I have seen.

    Post the image to the Mega Barber Thread.
    Some Barberites might miss it in its own thread.

    Great pick up. >>



    It wasn't my pickup, unfortunately. A good friend of mine got it.

    I did a search for "Mega Barber" but came up with nothing.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • lasvegasteddylasvegasteddy Posts: 10,408 ✭✭✭
    that sure was a wow on the koolness factor
    everything in life is but merely on loan to us by our appreciation....lose your appreciation and see


  • RichRRichR Posts: 3,841 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I'll give you $47 bucks for it...cash money!!!

    image
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    No doubt in my mind that it is genuine, and fabulous! So much for the old myth that the spacing of the dies prevents die clashing. Obviously the spacer can fail!

    Rare because the dies must have been retired as soon as the press operator could get the press stopped. Imagine the "CLANG!" this must have made when they hit! Also, the impact seems to have caused a cud, or possibly a retained cud, below "(G)OD W(E)." Notice the raised area that does not correspond with anything above "HALF" on the reverse, and how the end of the clashmark of the tip of the branch disappears into this void.

    Way Kewl!

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    Thanks for that observation, Tom. It looks like a blind-ended, bi-level die crack to me. A bit of the die seems to have sunk in in an abrupt fashion. Since this area lacks a clash mark, I'm wondering if this sinking-in preceded the clash.

    I'll be writing this specimen up for Coin World, along with a remarkable clash on a 1917 half dollar.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • blu62vetteblu62vette Posts: 11,900 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Very cool coin.
    http://www.bluccphotos.com" target="new">BluCC Photos Shows for onsite imaging: Nov Baltimore, FUN, Long Beach http://www.facebook.com/bluccphotos" target="new">BluCC on Facebook
  • DorkGirlDorkGirl Posts: 9,994 ✭✭✭
    image
    Becky
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Love the M of UNUM under the jaw.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • guitarwesguitarwes Posts: 9,237 ✭✭✭
    so everyone can see it....

    image
    image
    @ Elite CNC Routing & Woodworks on Facebook. Check out my work.
    Too many positive BST transactions with too many members to list.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    Here's a link to the only other clash I've seen that's equally strong:

    2000-P 5c clash

    All eight or so examples I've seen from this die pair feature a weak center with an unusually rough surface. Evidently, all these planchets were abnormally hard with a coarse surface texture. Perhaps the press operator cranked up the ram pressure to compensate for the excessively hard planchet and when the dies clashed, it was with tremedous force.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • MFHMFH Posts: 11,720 ✭✭✭✭
    I just looked at the listing again, and the seller had it under
    Standing Liberty Quarters !!!!!

    If it had been correctly listed, it would have fetched multiples
    of $46.00. I wonder who the seller is from Waltham, Massachusetts ?
    I know a couple of dealers who'd have offered him a substantial offer
    over what he ended up selling it for.

    The more I look at it, the more I'd like it for myself. It would be a
    great exhibit piece for the course Glenn Holsonbake & I are teaching in
    Colorado Springs at the 2nd Session at the ANA - entitled: THE COINAGE
    OF CHARLES BARBER.

    OP: you can find the Barber Mega Thread on the US Forums at PCGS - type
    In the search box BARBER - don't bother with Mega... It should jump out at you.

    Tell your friend "congratulations" and he deserves a YOU SUCK AWARD image
    Mike Hayes
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~
    Coin collecting is not a hobby, it's an obsession !

    New Barber Purchases
  • ctf_error_coinsctf_error_coins Posts: 15,433 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Mike, I have an error type set from the year 2000.

    I am very interested in acquiring an example of the 2000 nickel die clash. Please PM if you know of any examples that are for sale.

    Both of the die clash errors in this thread are extremely nice examples.
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
    That is an EPIC clash. Wow.




    -Paul
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Here's a link to the only other clash I've seen that's equally strong:

    2000-P 5c clash

    All eight or so examples I've seen from this die pair feature a weak center with an unusually rough surface. Evidently, all these planchets were abnormally hard with a coarse surface texture. Perhaps the press operator cranked up the ram pressure to compensate for the excessively hard planchet and when the dies clashed, it was with tremedous force. >>



    Mike, that is also a monster clash!

    Did you notice that on both pieces the struck coins look a bit "flat?" I wonder if the powerful clashes were strong enough to change the radius of the convex dies, flattening them out enough for the border lettering & etc. to also clash? Normally the curvature of the dies would keep those areas away from each other.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • toyz4geotoyz4geo Posts: 1,467 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Interesting that it circulated as long as it seems to have. Extremely neat piece and a great pickup!
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Interesting that it circulated as long as it seems to have. Extremely neat piece and a great pickup! >>



    Just remember that those of who consider something like this to be way kewl are an extremely small (though perceptive and discerning) percentage of the population as a whole!

    image
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Here's a link to the only other clash I've seen that's equally strong:

    2000-P 5c clash

    All eight or so examples I've seen from this die pair feature a weak center with an unusually rough surface. Evidently, all these planchets were abnormally hard with a coarse surface texture. Perhaps the press operator cranked up the ram pressure to compensate for the excessively hard planchet and when the dies clashed, it was with tremedous force. >>



    Mike, that is also a monster clash!

    Did you notice that on both pieces the struck coins look a bit "flat?" I wonder if the powerful clashes were strong enough to change the radius of the convex dies, flattening them out enough for the border lettering & etc. to also clash? Normally the curvature of the dies would keep those areas away from each other.

    TD >>



    You may be correct, but it's really hard to be certain. Any change in die convexity is likely to be very subtle. The die face is relatively flat (and the design rather low) in nickels of the late 1990's to the present, and that probably facilitated the complete transfer. I don't think it could have happened in even the strongest clash had the nickel been from the early 1980s when die convexity was much stronger.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Well, one of the functions of the convexity of the opposing dies is to bring them closer in the centers, which are typically difficult to strike up because of the opposing designs. Notice how weak the nickel is in the center on both sides. This could mean that the convexity is gone.

    This was a tremendous clashing. Since the dies were of equal hardness, they may well have pancaked each other.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    Your conjecture may turn out to be correct. There are any number of explanations for weakness in the center of a coin. What I did notice is that the unusual roughness is also present on the top of the design rim, where effective striking pressure tends to be weak. So something was odd about the planchet.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Your conjecture may turn out to be correct. There are any number of explanations for weakness in the center of a coin. What I did notice is that the unusual roughness is also present on the top of the design rim, where effective striking pressure tends to be weak. So something was odd about the planchet. >>



    I see what you mean about the rim on the nickel.

    Just my idle first thought, not having seen the coin...If the dies did pancake a bit when they slammed into each other down inside the collar, the outer border of the die might have bulged outwards a bit during the clash and impacted against the inside of the collar, causing the rim in the die (which is of course incused) to crumple a bit and become rough.

    Would love to see one of the nickels.

    TD
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • CaptHenwayCaptHenway Posts: 31,499 ✭✭✭✭✭
    ttt for the weekend crowd.
    Numismatist. 50 year member ANA. Winner of four ANA Heath Literary Awards; three Wayte and Olga Raymond Literary Awards; Numismatist of the Year Award 2009, and Lifetime Achievement Award 2020. Winner numerous NLG Literary Awards.
  • errormavenerrormaven Posts: 1,168 ✭✭✭
    The article on this coin is now available in the online edition of this week's Coin World.
    Mike Diamond is an error coin writer and researcher. Views expressed here do not necessarily reflect those held by any organization I am a member of.

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