<< <i>While the luster does look incredible, look at the large pictures of the cheek.
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69. >>
Planchet striations. As struck in other words. >>
There are enough other marks on the obverse and the reverse that I would not expect to see this in a 69 holder. This is a very nice looking dollar but if it was a modern it would have graded lower. I would expect the grading standards to be similar, she is not perfect or borderline perfect.
Hmmm I'd sure like to see it in hand but I'm also not really seeing this as a 69 baised on those pics. To be honest I have a 67 thats as nice as that, to the op's question I'm sure it will bring big bucks from a registry player.
<< <i>If it is as struck it should not be included in the numerical grade. >>
Weakly struck coins can be totally bag mark-free and still grade less than MS-65. Sure some things, like die cracks for instance, don't usually have a negative influence on the grade, but others sure do. I find whatever those marks are on the cheek to be distracting and I'd grade the coin with that in mind.
I'm a little underwhelmed by the coin, but I'm sure it's still very nice.
While this 1880-S is certainly a killer coin IMO, I think the finest business strike Morgan dollar that exists is the Wayne Miller 1878-S which I believe PCGS graded an MS68PL sometime in the distant past, and was also the plate and cover coin on Miller's Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook. That 78-S is just amazing IMO.
I really expected to see something special, but? It's nice alright but I think it's over graded. I would expect to see a blemish free, or VERY near blemish free coin, but I'm not. I'll bet the luster is booming....
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<< <i>While the luster does look incredible, look at the large pictures of the cheek.
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69. >>
I agree. >>
Also, look in the field to the left of the eye...there is nick in the field in addition to the small nick on the cheek...and then way too many luster breaks. I have seen better cheeks on MS67s!
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<< <i>While the luster does look incredible, look at the large pictures of the cheek.
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69. >>
It seems to have some roller marks. >>
Thise must have been HUGE roller marks to have not been struck out of the coin.
I would expect to see evidence of these maks elsewhere on the coin as well since roller marks occur during strip preparation. At the very minimum, within the fields since the metal flows up into the die.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
I'm amazed how many armchair experts there are this morning. All of the sudden everybody is a Morgan Dollar expert and everybody can grade better than PCGS.
Until you've had the opportunity to view this coin in person it doesn't help to speculate on the merits of the assigned grade. As we all know it is impossible to grade a coin based on images.
I have viewed this coin in person before but I will do it again before I form an opinion about it.
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<< <i>I'm amazed how many armchair experts there are this morning. >>
It's not just this morning, and it is not just on this forum. I honestly would say that at least 80% of the people I meet - collectors and dealers alike - are convinced that they can grade coins better than the grading services.
I don't care for the ultra Grade game or morgans but that is a special coin that if you put in a pile of 100 other high end morgans you could pick it out repeatedly as the best which is more then I can say for a lot of other plastic super stars
That is one nice 80-S PL Morgan, would love to have it in my collection. The roller marks give the coin originality and should not take away from the grade.
I must agree with Wei.... the criticism leveled in this thread is unbelievable. I guess PCGS just does not have competent graders... they should hire off this forum. Amazing. I am sure y'all are better football coaches on Monday morning as well. Unbelievable. Cheers, RickO
<< <i>I'm amazed how many armchair experts there are this morning. >>
It's not just this morning, and it is not just on this forum. I honestly would say that at least 80% of the people I meet - collectors and dealers alike - are convinced that they can grade coins better than the grading services. >>
I do not think you are interpreting the opinions correctly. No one has claimed they can grade better than PCGS. No one has claimed to be the biggest MORGAN EXPERT here. Do you deny that there is a nick in the cheek? Do you deny there is a nick in the field to the left of the eye? Do you deny the luster breaks in several places? Do you deny that "I" have seen better looking cheeks on MS67 Morgans? Is someone calling me a liar here? I think the only thing people like myself are saying is that for a MS69 PL, we (the forum folk without money to even bid on it) would expect a little better. If this were just a nice 66 or 67 being discussed I bet a lot of people would say hold off and wait...find a better one without roller marks across the cheek(or what looks like roller marks...whatever). Geez! Now you all holier-than-thou folk can get off your high horse and stop putting words in our mouths. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and not everyone can afford to fly out there, go to lot viewing, then issue an opinion. It is funny that the rich-snob-holier-than-thou folks can sit around and bash all of the people with cheaper coins BUT OHHHHHH BOY, HOLD JUST A MINUTE...The Poor People cannot stand up and criticize a rich-person's toy? Is that how it works around here? It sure seems like it sometimes.
Someone asked where the CAC sticker was! This is a good question! Is this a coin that our dear friend at Legend would pass on?...would they call it a widget? Should it be in a 68 or 68+ holder...then get a CAC sticker? Maybe TDN will chime in with his thoughts?
"If it's not fun, it's not worth it." - KeyMan64 Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
I will admit that I don't know how to grade Morgans. But it doesn't matter to me if or if not the grade should not be affected by the roller marks. It kills it for me. I would rather have a 65 with a clean cheek. I would not pay big money for any Morgan, but especially this one. JMHO.
My thoughts are simple. It appears to be a very special coin. Those expecting perfection in an MS69 circulation strike are a bit out to lunch...so any ticks or luster grazes are easily forgiven in my mind. With that said, my personal opinion is that the roller marks APPEAR in the image to be a bit distracting and therefore although it may be correctly graded, it's not a coin that I personally would step up and buy.
<< <i>I'm amazed how many armchair experts there are this morning. >>
It's not just this morning, and it is not just on this forum. I honestly would say that at least 80% of the people I meet - collectors and dealers alike - are convinced that they can grade coins better than the grading services. >>
I do not think you are interpreting the opinions correctly. No one has claimed they can grade better than PCGS. No one has claimed to be the biggest MORGAN EXPERT here. Do you deny that there is a nick in the cheek? Do you deny there is a nick in the field to the left of the eye? Do you deny the luster breaks in several places? Do you deny that "I" have seen better looking cheeks on MS67 Morgans? Is someone calling me a liar here? I think the only thing people like myself are saying is that for a MS69 PL, we (the forum folk without money to even bid on it) would expect a little better. If this were just a nice 66 or 67 being discussed I bet a lot of people would say hold off and wait...find a better one without roller marks across the cheek(or what looks like roller marks...whatever). Geez! Now you all holier-than-thou folk can get off your high horse and stop putting words in our mouths. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and not everyone can afford to fly out there, go to lot viewing, then issue an opinion. It is funny that the rich-snob-holier-than-thou folks can sit around and bash all of the people with cheaper coins BUT OHHHHHH BOY, HOLD JUST A MINUTE...The Poor People cannot stand up and criticize a rich-person's toy? Is that how it works around here? It sure seems like it sometimes.
Someone asked where the CAC sticker was! This is a good question! Is this a coin that our dear friend at Legend would pass on?...would they call it a widget? Should it be in a 68 or 68+ holder...then get a CAC sticker? Maybe TDN will chime in with his thoughts? >>
My thoughts exactly.
If only "OMG thats Gorgeous" opinions or posts are allowed then this place would shut down rather quickly.
The fact of the matter is that the coin has some obvious flaws and questions regarding those flaws should be responded to with qualified answers and not necessarily STHU answers.
BTW, can anybody post pictures of other morgans with roller marks?
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
Perhaps what some do not understand about a coin like this and why it received the grade it did is that:
1) Morgan dollars are not graded like silver eagles, nor are Chain cents graded like a memorial Lincoln cent, nor is a 1796 quarter graded like state quarters. In fact, Morgan dollars aren't even graded like Trade or Seated dollars IMO.
2) Nitpicking on every tiny mark or flaw and you are missing the big picture on grading very high quality coins. Bagmarks are only one aspect of a coins grade......lustre, strike, eye appeal, the overall "look" all count too. It is many times the inexperienced grader who looks primarily at the marks on a coin and formulates at grade based on that.
3) By assigning a grade of MS69PL, perhaps what PCGS is saying is this coin is simply one point better (in their opinion) than any MS68PL they've seen?
One thing is for sure, that is one awfully nice 80-S!
<< <i>No one has claimed they can grade better than PCGS. >>
Sure they have - by pointing out that they think the coin does not look like a 69 to them.
<< <i>It is funny that the rich-snob-holier-than-thou folks can sit around and bash all of the people with cheaper coins BUT OHHHHHH BOY, HOLD JUST A MINUTE...The Poor People cannot stand up and criticize a rich-person's toy? Is that how it works around here? It sure seems like it sometimes. >>
I have no idea who consigned this coin, and I have no idea who most of the commenters in this thread are, let alone what their various income levels are, nor do I care, nor does that have anything to do with the fact that, merely by looking at an image, a number of people in this thread have concluded that it is not an accurately graded 69.
Personally, I have no opinion - I have never seen this coin in hand.
<< <i>My thoughts are simple. It appears to be a very special coin. Those expecting perfection in an MS69 circulation strike are a bit out to lunch...so any ticks or luster grazes are easily forgiven in my mind. With that said, my personal opinion is that the roller marks APPEAR in the image to be a bit distracting and therefore although it may be correctly graded, it's not a coin that I personally would step up and buy. >>
The few classic MS69 type coins I've seen had some ticks and scuffs. While I wasn't expecting them you'd be hard pressed to find better coins. In any case there is now easily room for a 69+ Morgan should one show up. Obvious roller marks wouldn't cut it on a MS69 coin if I were a buyer. I don't think I would accept them on a MS68 either. When it comes to monster MS Morgans I always think of that MS67 DMPL 1886-O. Shouldn't exist.
<< <i>No one has claimed they can grade better than PCGS. >>
Sure they have - by pointing out that they think the coin does not look like a 69 to them. >>
>>
So you are saying that when a person expresses a single opinion on a single coin, that is an automatic claim that they are better graders than PCGS?...I doubt it! I disagree with you and think your claim is ridiculous. Claiming to be a better grader would need to be supported by hundreds of examples(if not thousands) covering many different series.
Panties are getting twisted over one opinion?! Holy Cow!
TDN chimed in which is nice...I do not expect perfection in a MS69 PL grade for a coin that is 130ish years old so I am glad he is not talking to me. His opinion that this is not one he would go after kinda makes me feel he agrees with at least some things that are being said here. Probably not a coin that is solid/strong for the grade...probably not a coin that would merit a special sticker. I am not sure if this is what he is saying, it is just my guess given his previously expressed preference for solid/strong-for-the-grade special sticker coins....or maybe I am confusing him with Legend? I could be wrong...it seems plenty of people think I am wrong quite often. I have not said this coin is NOT an MS69 PL but I do wonder if it would have a special sticker on the holder if it were in a 68+ PL holder. A coin like this with roller marks across the cheek does not make for a strong/solid MS69 example IMO.
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That's a real pretty Morgan- but i agree with some of the criticism of it based on the images available. My hunch is that there are a fair number of other 1880-S Morgans out there that would give you equal eye appeal to this one, without the hefty $80K price tag.
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As stated in the auction text, 1880-S Morgans are not uncommon in high MS PL/DMPL condition. In the 1970s I purchased several rolls of 1880-S dollars and they were absolutely gorgeous, most of them would these days grade MS66 or 67 PL or even DMPL.
WOW !!! It's a beautiful coin regardless of the grading disagreements. I would really like to see it in person. Based on the photos it is outstanding. I hope the winner appreciates it cherishes it as such.
I find it amazing how a lot of the posters here automatically side with PCGS. We all have eyes. Use them. I may not be able to say what grade a coin is from pictures, but i can surely say what grade it isnt and that is not a 69. Sorry.
<< <i>WOW !!! It's a beautiful coin regardless of the grading disagreements. I would really like to see it in person. Based on the photos it is outstanding. I hope the winner appreciates it cherishes it as such. >>
I'm sure s/he'll have around 160,000 if not more reasons to "cherish" it.
I decided to change calling the bathroom the John and renamed it the Jim. I feel so much better saying I went to the Jim this morning.
<< <i>I find it amazing how a lot of the posters here automatically side with PCGS. We all have eyes. Use them. I may not be able to say what grade a coin is from pictures, but i can surely say what grade it isnt and that is not a 69. Sorry. >>
I have to agree. Those roller marks are on a prime focal area (the cheek) and are too obvious/distracting for the lofty grade of 69. A true 69 should require the viewer to have to look hard to find out why it wasn't a 70. I know that roller marks are a mint created defect but so are weak strikes which are a negative factor when grading high grade coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
llafoe- Morgan looks great, always has been a sexy woman. The coin is tough to get a grasp based on the pics. Looks nice n clean to me. How many Morgans are graded MS69, any date or mm?
dragon
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That looks Sweeeeeeeeeeeeet!!
Edited to take a guess on Final Price: $50,000 - $80,000
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69.
<< <i>While the luster does look incredible, look at the large pictures of the cheek.
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69. >>
It seems to have some roller marks.
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<< <i>While the luster does look incredible, look at the large pictures of the cheek.
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69. >>
Planchet striations. As struck in other words.
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<< <i>
<< <i>While the luster does look incredible, look at the large pictures of the cheek.
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69. >>
Planchet striations. As struck in other words. >>
There are enough other marks on the obverse and the reverse that I would not expect to see this in a 69 holder. This is a very nice looking dollar but if it was a modern it would have graded lower. I would expect the grading standards to be similar, she is not perfect or borderline perfect.
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<< <i>While the luster does look incredible, look at the large pictures of the cheek.
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69. >>
I agree.
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<< <i>If it is as struck it should not be included in the numerical grade. >>
Weakly struck coins can be totally bag mark-free and still grade less than MS-65. Sure some things, like die cracks for instance, don't usually have a negative influence on the grade, but others sure do. I find whatever those marks are on the cheek to be distracting and I'd grade the coin with that in mind.
I'm a little underwhelmed by the coin, but I'm sure it's still very nice.
<< <i>Beautiful coin, but I would grade it MS67 PL. It would need to have a perfect cheek to make 69 in my book. >>
Not a chance it's that low. It's a high end 68PL in my book, maybe a 68+PL. But probably not a 69.
-Paul
<< <i>
<< <i>While the luster does look incredible, look at the large pictures of the cheek.
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69. >>
I agree. >>
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AL
<< <i>
<< <i>While the luster does look incredible, look at the large pictures of the cheek.
Not even close to what I would expect for a 69. >>
It seems to have some roller marks. >>
Thise must have been HUGE roller marks to have not been struck out of the coin.
I would expect to see evidence of these maks elsewhere on the coin as well since roller marks occur during strip preparation. At the very minimum, within the fields since the metal flows up into the die.
The name is LEE!
Until you've had the opportunity to view this coin in person it doesn't help to speculate on the merits of the assigned grade. As we all know it is impossible to grade a coin based on images.
I have viewed this coin in person before but I will do it again before I form an opinion about it.
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Roller marks are part of the as-made reality for many Morgans.
<< <i>I'm amazed how many armchair experts there are this morning. >>
It's not just this morning, and it is not just on this forum. I honestly would say that at least 80% of the people I meet - collectors and dealers alike - are convinced that they can grade coins better than the grading services.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
<< <i>Here it is from five years ago >>
It look much nicer in these pics.
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm amazed how many armchair experts there are this morning. >>
It's not just this morning, and it is not just on this forum. I honestly would say that at least 80% of the people I meet - collectors and dealers alike - are convinced that they can grade coins better than the grading services. >>
I do not think you are interpreting the opinions correctly. No one has claimed they can grade better than PCGS. No one has claimed to be the biggest MORGAN EXPERT here. Do you deny that there is a nick in the cheek? Do you deny there is a nick in the field to the left of the eye? Do you deny the luster breaks in several places? Do you deny that "I" have seen better looking cheeks on MS67 Morgans? Is someone calling me a liar here? I think the only thing people like myself are saying is that for a MS69 PL, we (the forum folk without money to even bid on it) would expect a little better. If this were just a nice 66 or 67 being discussed I bet a lot of people would say hold off and wait...find a better one without roller marks across the cheek(or what looks like roller marks...whatever). Geez! Now you all holier-than-thou folk can get off your high horse and stop putting words in our mouths. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and not everyone can afford to fly out there, go to lot viewing, then issue an opinion. It is funny that the rich-snob-holier-than-thou folks can sit around and bash all of the people with cheaper coins BUT OHHHHHH BOY, HOLD JUST A MINUTE...The Poor People cannot stand up and criticize a rich-person's toy? Is that how it works around here? It sure seems like it sometimes.
Someone asked where the CAC sticker was! This is a good question! Is this a coin that our dear friend at Legend would pass on?...would they call it a widget? Should it be in a 68 or 68+ holder...then get a CAC sticker? Maybe TDN will chime in with his thoughts?
Looking for Top Pop Mercury Dime Varieties & High Grade Mercury Dime Toners.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>I'm amazed how many armchair experts there are this morning. >>
It's not just this morning, and it is not just on this forum. I honestly would say that at least 80% of the people I meet - collectors and dealers alike - are convinced that they can grade coins better than the grading services. >>
I do not think you are interpreting the opinions correctly. No one has claimed they can grade better than PCGS. No one has claimed to be the biggest MORGAN EXPERT here. Do you deny that there is a nick in the cheek? Do you deny there is a nick in the field to the left of the eye? Do you deny the luster breaks in several places? Do you deny that "I" have seen better looking cheeks on MS67 Morgans? Is someone calling me a liar here? I think the only thing people like myself are saying is that for a MS69 PL, we (the forum folk without money to even bid on it) would expect a little better. If this were just a nice 66 or 67 being discussed I bet a lot of people would say hold off and wait...find a better one without roller marks across the cheek(or what looks like roller marks...whatever). Geez! Now you all holier-than-thou folk can get off your high horse and stop putting words in our mouths. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and not everyone can afford to fly out there, go to lot viewing, then issue an opinion. It is funny that the rich-snob-holier-than-thou folks can sit around and bash all of the people with cheaper coins BUT OHHHHHH BOY, HOLD JUST A MINUTE...The Poor People cannot stand up and criticize a rich-person's toy? Is that how it works around here? It sure seems like it sometimes.
Someone asked where the CAC sticker was! This is a good question! Is this a coin that our dear friend at Legend would pass on?...would they call it a widget? Should it be in a 68 or 68+ holder...then get a CAC sticker? Maybe TDN will chime in with his thoughts? >>
My thoughts exactly.
If only "OMG thats Gorgeous" opinions or posts are allowed then this place would shut down rather quickly.
The fact of the matter is that the coin has some obvious flaws and questions regarding those flaws should be responded to with qualified answers and not necessarily STHU answers.
BTW, can anybody post pictures of other morgans with roller marks?
The name is LEE!
<< <i>BTW, can anybody post pictures of other morgans with roller marks? >>
Look around the eyes...
1) Morgan dollars are not graded like silver eagles, nor are Chain cents graded like a memorial Lincoln cent, nor is a 1796 quarter graded like state quarters. In fact, Morgan dollars aren't even graded like Trade or Seated dollars IMO.
2) Nitpicking on every tiny mark or flaw and you are missing the big picture on grading very high quality coins. Bagmarks are only one aspect of a coins grade......lustre, strike, eye appeal, the overall "look" all count too. It is many times the inexperienced grader who looks primarily at the marks on a coin and formulates at grade based on that.
3) By assigning a grade of MS69PL, perhaps what PCGS is saying is this coin is simply one point better (in their opinion) than any MS68PL they've seen?
One thing is for sure, that is one awfully nice 80-S!
<< <i>No one has claimed they can grade better than PCGS. >>
Sure they have - by pointing out that they think the coin does not look like a 69 to them.
<< <i>It is funny that the rich-snob-holier-than-thou folks can sit around and bash all of the people with cheaper coins BUT OHHHHHH BOY, HOLD JUST A MINUTE...The Poor People cannot stand up and criticize a rich-person's toy? Is that how it works around here? It sure seems like it sometimes.
I have no idea who consigned this coin, and I have no idea who most of the commenters in this thread are, let alone what their various income levels are, nor do I care, nor does that have anything to do with the fact that, merely by looking at an image, a number of people in this thread have concluded that it is not an accurately graded 69.
Personally, I have no opinion - I have never seen this coin in hand.
<< <i>Cant wait to see it at lot viewing! >>
I agree... this may be the first time I've ever went to lot viewing actually wanting to see a Morgan Dollar
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<< <i>My thoughts are simple. It appears to be a very special coin. Those expecting perfection in an MS69 circulation strike are a bit out to lunch...so any ticks or luster grazes are easily forgiven in my mind. With that said, my personal opinion is that the roller marks APPEAR in the image to be a bit distracting and therefore although it may be correctly graded, it's not a coin that I personally would step up and buy. >>
The few classic MS69 type coins I've seen had some ticks and scuffs. While I wasn't expecting them you'd be hard pressed to find better coins. In any case there is now easily room for
a 69+ Morgan should one show up. Obvious roller marks wouldn't cut it on a MS69 coin if I were a buyer. I don't think I would accept them on a MS68 either. When it comes to monster MS Morgans I always think of that MS67 DMPL 1886-O. Shouldn't exist.
roadrunner
That coin needs to be sent back to the photo dept. and be reshot.
And as mentioned from first glance I think I have seen quite a few MS67 coins that are as nice just not in series that get extra credit.
<< <i>
<< <i>No one has claimed they can grade better than PCGS. >>
Sure they have - by pointing out that they think the coin does not look like a 69 to them. >>
>>
So you are saying that when a person expresses a single opinion on a single coin, that is an automatic claim that they are better graders than PCGS?...I doubt it! I disagree with you and think your claim is ridiculous. Claiming to be a better grader would need to be supported by hundreds of examples(if not thousands) covering many different series.
Panties are getting twisted over one opinion?! Holy Cow!
TDN chimed in which is nice...I do not expect perfection in a MS69 PL grade for a coin that is 130ish years old so I am glad he is not talking to me. His opinion that this is not one he would go after kinda makes me feel he agrees with at least some things that are being said here. Probably not a coin that is solid/strong for the grade...probably not a coin that would merit a special sticker. I am not sure if this is what he is saying, it is just my guess given his previously expressed preference for solid/strong-for-the-grade special sticker coins....or maybe I am confusing him with Legend? I could be wrong...it seems plenty of people think I am wrong quite often. I have not said this coin is NOT an MS69 PL but I do wonder if it would have a special sticker on the holder if it were in a 68+ PL holder. A coin like this with roller marks across the cheek does not make for a strong/solid MS69 example IMO.
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...hmmmm. if only it was wearing the bean
In the 1970s I purchased several rolls of 1880-S dollars and they were absolutely gorgeous, most of them would these days grade MS66 or 67 PL or even DMPL.
Pretty nice.
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It's a beautiful coin regardless of the grading disagreements.
I would really like to see it in person.
Based on the photos it is outstanding.
I hope the winner appreciates it cherishes it as such.
<< <i>WOW !!!
It's a beautiful coin regardless of the grading disagreements.
I would really like to see it in person.
Based on the photos it is outstanding.
I hope the winner appreciates it cherishes it as such. >>
I'm sure s/he'll have around 160,000 if not more reasons to "cherish" it.
The name is LEE!
<< <i>I find it amazing how a lot of the posters here automatically side with PCGS. We all have eyes. Use them. I may not be able to say what grade a coin is from pictures, but i can surely say what grade it isnt and that is not a 69. Sorry. >>
I have to agree. Those roller marks are on a prime focal area (the cheek) and are too obvious/distracting for the lofty grade of 69. A true 69 should require the viewer to have to look hard to find out why it wasn't a 70. I know that roller marks are a mint created defect but so are weak strikes which are a negative factor when grading high grade coins.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
The coin is tough to get a grasp based on the pics.
Looks nice n clean to me. How many Morgans are graded MS69, any date or mm?