Did I buy a counterfeit 1945 PCGS MS64FB Mercury Dime? UPDATED 8/23 IN FIRST POST

commoncents05 · August 22, 2010 1:45AM

Link to Heritage selling of coin with same serial number. We know this coin is obviously genuine.

Link to the auction I won on eBay.

Link to listing of another coin with SAME SERIAL NUMBER

Any thoughts?

UPDATE 8/23: I contacted the seller just minutes ago, and he has been contacted by numerous other people informing him it was a counterfeit holder. The seller had already initiated a cancel transaction request through eBay. He said he showed it to many dealers and even NGC, and nobody said anything about the coin or holder being bogus. I think the seller is a straight shooter, and mistakenly purchased the coin, and was not trying to defraud anyone in the sale. For the record, I would have no problem buying from him in the future.

-Paul

-Paul

blu62vette · August 22, 2010 1:46AM

yes you did. The label is wrong, looks to have to much texture in the blue.

commoncents05 · August 22, 2010 1:50AM

<< yes you did. The label is wrong, looks to have to much texture in the blue. >>

I think that's just because it's a scan.

-Paul

BillJones · August 22, 2010 1:53AM

Why did you buy that when the pictures were so bad? I think this is an example of "bad pictures for a reason." They were out to hide something.

blu62vette · August 22, 2010 1:54AM

2 people in FL selling the same coin? I am real wary on this one.

Rampage · August 22, 2010 1:55AM

The coin in the auction you won, does not look like the same coin in the Heritage auction. I do not see the same spots or marks or anything. Maybe I am missing something. Good luck with it.

blu62vette · August 22, 2010 1:57AM

edit for mistake

LanLord · August 22, 2010 1:57AM

Is the dime counterfeit or is it the slab? Or both?

The dime looks correct (for a merc) perhaps not for the grade though!

Rampage · August 22, 2010 1:57AM

<< 2 people in FL selling the same coin? I am real wary on this one. >>

I agree with you 100%. However, the real ball grabber, if folks have not already piucvked up on it, is that the pictures in the two auctions are NOT of the same type. In other words, one set of pictures are actual pictures with a glare from the flash. The other set of pictures appear to be scans or high quality pictures that some folks are good at.

coinguy1 · August 22, 2010 1:58AM

Paul, I can't make any promises, but the one you bought on Ebay looks genuine to me.

Still, I would suggest that you contact the seller, link the Heritage listing and the other Ebay listing as you have done here, let him know of your concern and see what he says.

blu62vette · August 22, 2010 2:00AM

<< 

<< 2 people in FL selling the same coin? I am real wary on this one. >>

I agree with you 100%. However, the real ball grabber, if folks have not already piucvked up on it, is that the pictures in the two auctions are NOT of the same type. In other words, one set of pictures are actual pictures with a glare from the flash. The other set of pictures appear to be scans or high quality pictures that some folks are good at. >>

I saved both images to my computer and the images are the same.

Moldnut · August 22, 2010 2:00AM

I would agree, it does not look like the same coin from Heritage.

coindeuce · August 22, 2010 2:03AM

The cert. number of the HA lot is the same as the cert. number for the coin you bought from Coastal Coin in Sarasota. The HA lot sold in Jan.2009, so it is entirely feasible that Coastal has had it since then. Perhaps the coin listed by the Gainesville seller was on memo from Coastal even though they had it listed on eBay, and the two parties haven't communicated well about the redundant listings. I would be confident that your coin is legit, but you may want to call Coastal and ask them about the Gainesville seller's listing. If you examine the Gainesville seller's recent positive eBay feedback, you will notice that Merc. dimes appear to be a specialty of theirs.

Moldnut · August 22, 2010 2:05AM

The Heritage coins center band is not as "Full Rounded Split" like the EBAY coin. Thats what I see.

pcpro · August 22, 2010 2:06AM

It's really not the same coin.

The obverse on the Coastal coin is much cleaner in many respects. Look at Heritage's picture to see why their coin is a "64"

If your coin doesn't match EXACTLY the coin in the Heritage photo, then get your money back.

JMHO

coinguy1 · August 22, 2010 2:06AM

<< The cert. number of the HA lot is the same as the cert. number for the coin you bought from Coastal Coin in Sarasota. The HA lot sold in Jan.2009, so it is entirely feasible that Coastal has had it since then. Perhaps the coin listed by the Gainesville seller was on memo from Coastal even though they had it listed on eBay, and the two parties haven't communicated well about the redundant listings. I would be confident that your coin is legit, but you may want to call Coastal and ask them about the Gainesville seller's listing. >>

Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the ID numbers for the Heritage listing and the coin which was won on Ebay ARE the same.

blu62vette · August 22, 2010 2:07AM

I take back what I said about the images there are not in the same location but as I save them my computer keeps acting like the are they same file and the do look the same. There are not hosted the same place on the web as I thought.

jesbroken · August 22, 2010 2:31AM

I agree with Mark---same exact coin IMHO. Marks are identical. Photo differences due to methodology.
Jim

Edited to add: The coin could have changed hands several times since Heritage sale.

okracer · August 22, 2010 2:38AM

To me, it looks like in each of the 3 listings, the rotation of the coin in each holder seems to be different, especially when I look at the reverses.

.....maybe the coin can move a little with handling, or not, in those tight rings in the slabs.........?

coindeuce · August 22, 2010 3:16AM

<< To me, it looks like in each of the 3 listings, the rotation of the coin in each holder seems to be different, especially when I look at the reverses.

.....maybe the coin can move a little with handling, or not, in those tight rings in the slabs.........? >>

Or the coin could have been reholdered numerous times to eliminate unsightly scuffs or scratches on the holder. The cert. number would remain the same on a reholder service....SHEEESH!

frnklnlvr · August 22, 2010 3:37AM

Comparing only the Heritage coin and the auction you won, they look like different coins to me. The markings behind the neck in the Heritage coin are not on the Ebay coin and I can't find any other marks that match either. One or the other must be a counterfeit slab. If it's a counterfeit slab it could be a counterfeit coin or the halves of two genuine coins joined together.

Bayard1908 · August 22, 2010 3:58AM

It's the same cert number as a coin in the Craigslist counterfeit thread

Scroll down to see 1945 dime

JBN · August 22, 2010 4:39AM

The PCGS logo on the hologram is well toward the top on the Coastal Coin/ebay listing.

Not so on the Heritage listing and the fan4the game ebay listing.

coinguy1 · August 22, 2010 5:35AM

Paul, even though I commented that the coin you purchased looked genuine to me, sadly, that is really secondary at this point. As, in addition to the Heritage coin and the other Ebay listing you linked having the same ID number, as was mentioned by Bayard1908, the same ID number also appears on yet another listing which was discussed in another thread.

I wouldn't pay for it and I'd contact the seller of the one you bought, as well as the sellers of the other two which appeared on Ebay, and PCGS. Perhaps through a joint effort, the source can be discovered.

braddick · August 22, 2010 5:39AM

Heritage: Real.

Your auction win: Real.

The other listing? Fake.

(All my opinion, of course.)

coinguy1 · August 22, 2010 5:45AM

<< Heritage: Real.

Your auction win: Real.

The other listing? Fake.

(All my opinion, of course.) >>

Pat, that is my guess, as well, but, right or wrong, man, this is getting scary!

messydesk · August 22, 2010 5:47AM

I'd say the two eBay coins are fake. The back of theslab is a dead giveaway. Along with the hologram position mentioned earlier, there's a scratch in the hologram of the real coin.

PawPaul · August 22, 2010 6:00AM

so , the sky is falling ?

braddick · August 22, 2010 6:01AM

Mark, I agree totally. I own two of these fake PCGS slabbed coins and they would pass muster upon first glance by most but the seasoned dealer and this "next generation" is even better (especially the font and richness of the insert color).

I also have a the small white ANACS fake slab (with an altered 3-legged) that would fool many.

NCS is also being counterfeited now and even though they no longer holder coins there is a market place for their coins.

PCGS's big announcement was totally cool a few months back. The plus grading and all- very neat. But I was privately disappointed it really didn't involve more with anti-counterfeiting measures in their slabs (not so much the coin).
It is akin to a "Big Announcement" by McDonalds speculating it's going to be a permanent spot on their menu board for the McRib (a tasty morsel!) only to find instead it is to announce a new catsup for their burgers.

roadrunner · August 22, 2010 6:15AM

I usually don't like the bands on nearly every slabbed 1945-P FB Merc I see. The Heritage 64 listed is no exception. One has to squint to see center band separation.

But this ebay coin is an exception. But...the center bands appear too widely split and superbly defined for a 45-P. Do they even come that good? I'd be leery that they weren't enhanced. There's not a tad of weakness in the upper part of the lower diagnonal band, esp. where the leaf overlaps it. A strike this good is uncharacteristic of most slabbed TPG specimens. I looked at about half a dozen 64's to 66's on the Heritage Archives and none look as sharp as this one. It's either a freakish strike for the date or has had metal moved or even a mint-mark removed.

roadrunner

EagleEye · August 22, 2010 6:19AM

Heritage----ebay-----fan4thegame

I guess we can assume the Heritage one is real. Maybe. The others are certianly not the same coin. There is obvious die plosh on the first one which doesn't show up on the the second and third one. The last two also have very strong bands where the Heritage one does not. 1945's are typically like the Heritage coin, which is why they are so tough with full bands.

Notice that the labels are not direct copies of #1 either - the 2 is positioned diferently above the bars on the last two.

Moldnut · August 22, 2010 6:21AM

<< I usually don't like the bands on nearly every slabbed 1945-P FB Merc I see. The Heritage 64 listed is no exception. One has to squint to see center band separation.

But this ebay coin is an exception. But...the center bands appear too widely split and defined for a 45-P. Do they even come like that? I'd be leery that they weren't enhanced.

roadrunner >>

This is just what I thought in my eariler post.

Moldnut · August 22, 2010 6:22AM

Thanks Rick, that really helps.

blu62vette · August 22, 2010 6:25AM

To me Ricks examples really show the label differences. I cant get past the "texture" on the label.

Moldnut · August 22, 2010 6:29AM

In no way the last two coins are the same as the first, I hope this works out for our member. This is just pissing me off, all this is going to kill this hobby

coinguy1 · August 22, 2010 6:30AM

<< Heritage----ebay-----fan4thegame

I guess we can assume the Heritage one is real. Maybe. The others are certianly not the same coin. There is obvious die plosh on the first one which doesn't show up on the the second and third one. The last two also have very strong bands where the Heritage one does not. 1945's are typically like the Heritage coin, which is why they are so tough with full bands.

Notice that the labels are not direct copies of #1 either - the 2 is positioned diferently above the bars on the last two. >>

And don't forget about this one, sold by the seller of the 1916-D Dime, discussed in another thread :

EagleEye · August 22, 2010 6:32AM

I sent the following to fan4thegame:

It has been asserted and subsequently proven that the coin you are listing is counterfeit. As it is illegal to sell counterfeits and doing so across state lines makes it a Federal case, I would strongly suggest you cancel this auction and never try to post it again.

coinguy1 · August 22, 2010 6:35AM

<< I sent the following to fan4thegame:

It has been asserted and subsequently proven that the coin you are listing is counterfeit. As it is illegal to sell counterfeits and doing so across state lines makes it a Federal case, I would strongly suggest you cancel this auction and never try to post it again. >>

Rick, if the seller doesn't think or know it to be counterfeit, why would he end the listing, based just on a message like that? Did you also refer him to this thread and the other examples with the identical ID number?

EagleEye · August 22, 2010 6:39AM

That is step two. After he says "I have 42 years experience...."

roadrunner · August 22, 2010 6:47AM

There are no doubt counterfeiters and bank robbers with 42 yrs experience as well.

roadrunner

sinin1 · August 22, 2010 7:09AM

I think your eBay purchase could be an authentic coin in a counterfeit slab

and your authentic coin has been tooled on the reverse

just my best guess from the pics provided

makes it hard to buy high ticket items from eBay or Craigs list

good news for legit auction houses - bad news for scammy auction/sales sites

LanLord · August 22, 2010 7:10AM

At one time PCGS had problems with reassigning slab numbers to multiple coins (it was discovered when someone couldn't place a newly slabbed coin into his registry - I believe). At any rate, could these dups be associated with that issue?

jdimmick · August 22, 2010 7:16AM

The coin is a fake, the slab is fake, they are currently all over the place on e-bay, as several folks I know have bought some similar, mostly morgan $ at this point. A few of them I have seen in hand are so good, Ill bet many dealers (even who have quite a bit of expereince)who are buying/selling them dont even realize themselves they are fakes. This is a real problem that is going to get worse, in fact damn scarry to be honest. I dont know what can be done but something needs to fast!!!

Ill I know is if somebody brings in any higher $ slabbed coins into my store they will be looked at with extreme scrutiny

GrumpyEd · August 22, 2010 7:45AM

<< It's the same cert number as a coin in the Craigslist counterfeit thread

Scroll down to see 1945 dime >>

WOW!

And notice the number position on the label!

coinguy1 · August 23, 2010 12:25AM

Please consider posting any thoughts or suggestions on how to combat the counterfeiting problem here: Centralized Thread for Suggestions to PCGS on Combating Counterfeiting Problem Thank you!

coinguy1 · August 23, 2010 1:30AM

<< I sent the following to fan4thegame:

It has been asserted and subsequently proven that the coin you are listing is counterfeit. As it is illegal to sell counterfeits and doing so across state lines makes it a Federal case, I would strongly suggest you cancel this auction and never try to post it again. >>

Rick, I have been in touch with that seller, and it appears that he was a victim to the same Craigslist scheme that at least one of the other sellers was. He has already talked to one of the other Ebay sellers and is going to get in touch with PCGS. He also ended his listing after I provided him with a link to this thread.

Amigo · August 23, 2010 2:28AM

Mark,
I may be wrong, but it is my opinion you are being very gullible. You appear to be taking their words that they were scammed off craigslist. That is very naive indeed. Until you see the copy of the craigslist ad they purchased from, phone records, withdrawal etc from their account to pay for the coin, a police report listing everything they know etc etc .............. it is my firm belief that you are just buying their cooked cover stories. In my book, anyone caught selling a counterfeit is the theif until PROVEN otherwise. These counterfeit coin rings are organized very similair to counterfeit bill organizations. They all depend upon a network of crooks to pass a quantity of goods. I'm not saying you are wrong in your assessment, just that you should be a whole lot more skepitcal.
Respectfully yours,

coinguy1 · August 23, 2010 2:48AM

<< Mark,
I may be wrong, but it is my opinion you are being very gullible. You appear to be taking their words that they were scammed off craigslist. That is very naive indeed. Until you see the copy of the craigslist ad they purchased from, phone records, withdrawal etc from their account to pay for the coin, a police report listing everything they know etc etc .............. it is my firm belief that you are just buying their cooked cover stories. In my book, anyone caught selling a counterfeit is the theif until PROVEN otherwise. These counterfeit coin rings are organized very similair to counterfeit bill organizations. They all depend upon a network of crooks to pass a quantity of goods. I'm not saying you are wrong in your assessment, just that you should be a whole lot more skepitcal.
Respectfully yours, >>

Perhaps I am being gullible. But if I am, it means that each of the Ebay sellers is working together, offering different coins with the exact same ID number - surely they could coordinate their plot and efforts much better than that.

And one of the sellers already had the name of someone to talk to at PCGS, a name that is not posted here. I believe that he would have had to take the initiative to obtain that name. Why go to that effort, if he is part of a counterfeit ring?

Also, why would one of them (from California) tie himself to the ones in Florida, by telling me about a Florida phone number that he was given? And why would he send potentially incriminating images to me, if he is in on it?

Why would two of the sellers email me and/or call me and/or provide me with a phone number (which I reached him at), if they are part of a counterfeit ring? I was no threat to them, and they could have much more easily ignored me and not provided me with any story or information.

All of the above things considered, while I am open to the possibility that I have been lied to, I think it is far more likely that they are telling the truth.

commoncents05 · August 23, 2010 3:31AM

UPDATE: I contacted the seller just minutes ago, and he has been contacted by numerous other people informing him it was a counterfeit holder. The seller had already initiated a cancel transaction request through eBay. He said he showed it to many dealers and even NGC, and nobody said anything about the coin or holder being bogus. I think the seller is a straight shooter, and mistakenly purchased the coin, and was not trying to defraud anyone in the sale. For the record, I would have no problem buying from him in the future.

-Paul

Frankcoins · August 23, 2010 7:40AM

<< Heritage----ebay-----fan4thegame

>>

The font on #1 looks too bold, I would think that one is a non FB coin in a fake holder.

#2 seems genuine (speckling on the label is JPEG compression artifacts)

#3 the holder looks real, but the coin has that glossy look seen on many fakes.

blu62vette · August 23, 2010 7:44AM

<< 
#2 seems genuine (speckling on the label is JPEG compression artifacts)
>>

This is something to be careful on. If it seems speckled proceed with caution. JPEG compression or not this can be a indicator of a fake.

Did I buy a counterfeit 1945 PCGS MS64FB Mercury Dime? UPDATED 8/23 IN FIRST POST

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