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I can't believe no proof gold/silver eagles for another year.
2manycoins2fewfunds
Posts: 3,034 ✭✭✭
How hard is it to acquire blanks??
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2manycoins2fewfunds
Posts: 3,034 ✭✭✭
2manycoins2fewfunds
Posts: 3,034 ✭✭✭
2manycoins2fewfunds
Posts: 3,034 ✭✭✭
Comments
I'm thinking they need to explain why no proof ASEs will be made this year.
(And no complaints of gold blanks either for that matter.)
The only real problem I have with the letter of that law is that it specifically refers to "public demand" yet the US Mint does not deal with the US public for bullion ASE's. They have 14 approved vendors. Some within this country while others appear to be offshore entities. (See Below) Production is related to "orders" from these 14 vendors and has absolutely nothing to do with public "demand".
Primarily because, as collectors and members of the US public, we are "demanding" our proof ASE's!
The US Mint's Real "customers"
1. A-Mark Precious Metals, Los Angeles - Silver, Gold, Platinum
2. Dillon Guage Inc. Dallas - Silver Only
3. Jack Hunt Coin Brokers, Buffalo NY - Silver Only
4. Prudential Securities Inc. New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum
5. The Gold Center, Springfield, Ill - Silver Only
6. Coin's 'N Things, Bridgewater MASS - Silver Only
7. Fidelitrade Inc, Wilmington Del - Silver Only
8. MTB, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum
9. SCB/Mocatta Bullion, New York City - Silver, Gold, Platinum
10. Commerzbank International, Luxembourg/New York City - Silver and Gold
11. Deutsche Bank AG, Frankfurt Germany - Silver, Gold Only
12. Union Bank of Switzerland, Zurich - Silver, Gold, Platinum
13. Hang Seng Bank, Hong Kong - Silver, Gold Only
14. Tinaka Kikinzoku Kogyo K.K., Tokyo - Gold, Platinum Only
The name is LEE!
<< <i>How hard is it to acquire blanks?? >>
I am hoping for a real shortage; one that affects the buffalo proofs. I read about this shortage earlier ; went out on a limb and purchased 11 of the buffalo proofs
That might turn out to be a very shrewd move.
Added: Based on the 12,778 current total that is listed in another thread, maybe not as shrewd as I thought, but probably not a bad way to go either.
I knew it would happen.
The real blanks are the fools running the US mint.
<< <i>Hmm, Russia, China, Canada, Australia - they are not running out of blanks. This really is an invented problem.
The real blanks are the fools running the US mint. >>
Hey! I resemble that remark.
Do you think Russia, China et al can get milk spots to stick on their bullion coins like the U.S. Mint can?
I - don't - think - so.
When Congress requires silver hockey pucks and provides no resources to do it, does that make the mint responsible?
Shiny versions of silver and gold bullion pieces are not required by Congress, but a great many other things are. The mint is limited by equipment, space, staff and money, so it has to prioritize what it can do with what the Congress provides.
I give away money. I collect money.
I don’t love money . I do love the Lord God.
<< <i>
<< <i>How hard is it to acquire blanks?? >>
I am hoping for a real shortage; one that affects the buffalo proofs. I read about this shortage earlier ; went out on a limb and purchased 11 of the buffalo proofs
Well they sold roughly 15,000 2010 $50 proof buffs in the first few days so that bets looking long.
<< <i>are ASEs and AGEs required to be made by US mined metals?? >>
from the info I posted in this thread, it looks like the ASE, AGE, APE, and even the 5oz National Pucks do not required the metals to be mined in the USA or Territories.
Sorry, guys- I hope it all works out for the best.
<< <i>How hard is it to acquire blanks?? >>
2008W Silver - 444,558
2008 Silver Proof - 713,353
2008 Silver Bullion - 19,510,000
2008 Total Silver Eagles alone - 20,667,911
2009 Bullion - 29,134,000
~41% increase
<< <i>I remember reading a post here from somebody who said they preferred collecting modern mint issues over the "classics" because they didn't have to deal with all the issues that collectors of older coins had to worry about- counterfeits, doctored coins, etc. I guess that's true, but it appears there are a whole new set of issues to worry about for the moderns collector, aren't there?
Sorry, guys- I hope it all works out for the best. >>
Maybe we would rather collect this
Than this
Exactly! And Leonidas illustrates the point very well. And then, there are budget and/or common sense issues. One coin is worn and worth 10,000X Face. The other is freshly-minted and is worth just a bit over melt. There is a point at which gross value trumps nostalgia, especially if you don't have unlimited funds with which to play. Not too many people can ignore the investing aspects of coin collecting. And let's face it, a 1916-D Merc in AG or G isn't really rare and the market for circulated Mercs isn't growing like the market for ASEs. Something to consider.
Ironically, Modern Bullion is more like traditional money than classic coins are - it is extremely liquid, it has intrinsic value, and it is collectible if you like a collection issued in sequence, just like the old coinage. OTOH, after decades of price escalation classic coinage has become something different than when you could collect it from circulation in hopes of finding a valuable coin. The classic coinage is no different now than any other pre-packaged investment - packaged in plastic, certified by experts, sold by a dealer network, and found in various colors and styles to fit your tastes. You can be assured that any coin you buy from a dealer has been evaluated, shopped around, "conserved", and priced for sale many, many, many times over the course of its existance.
When you order from the Mint, you are the "Original Owner". You also have a better chance of "finding" a valuable coin with some careful data monitoring and analysis of Mint production than you do of finding a valuable coin in bulk unsorted coins from a bank or in circulation. You most certainly have a better chance of finding an upgrade, or of making a profit in random shipments from the Mint than you have of buying a slabbed coin from a dealer at the same markup as what the Mint charges for a piece of "collector bullion".
The Mint has never been much different than it is today, except that the offerings were fewer in the old days. It used to be that collector angst was focused on sending in an order for a couple Proof Sets by mail, hoping that your order reached the processing department before they cut off the order acceptance. And then you would wait for about 3 or 4 months before the Mint started shipping. Believe me, that seemed like an eternity. Nobody I know ever made a return because you were lucky just to get your Proof Set or Mint Set.
It's the unpredictability and the slow release of meaningful data that makes new issues from the Mint a challenge. I don't know if that is by chance or by design, but if everyone knew how many of each coin were to be made and released, at which prices and for how long - there would be no chance of market anomalies and less opportunity for snagging one of the Modern rarities when they are released. Eventually supply & demand rule, but initially it is speculation over the Mint's erratic policies and swings in the price of bullion during the release period that make being a Modern collector interesting. And that is one thing that hasn't changed!
I knew it would happen.
Not so fast
Here are photos (NOT "photshopped") of a genuine US Mint 2009 uncirculated Silver Eagle
(privately "re-manufactured" as a proof):
Marketing and sales of these pieces is yet to be determined.
I'm sure the mintage number of those will blow the 1995-W away!!!
Michael Kittle Rare Coins --- 1908-S Indian Head Cent Grading Set --- No. 1 1909 Mint Set --- Kittlecoins on Facebook --- Long Beach Table 448
<< <i>Luke----I sense a terrible disturbance in the Force!!!!! >>
Yes, Luke, come on over to the dark (Moonlight) side !
<< <i>Those 2009 proofs are pretty cool
I'm sure the mintage number of those will blow the 1995-W away!!!
The lowest mintage Silver Eagle (so far) is the 1995-W proof at about 30,000+.
I don't think I'll be making that many
<< <i>Counterfeits, or openly promoting mutilated silver bullion pieces, as something which they are not - "disturbed" seems to be an appropriate term. >>
"Mutilated" implies crude and/or random damage to the coin. These are privately "re-manufactured", "counter-stamped", "overstruck". You can choose the term. But "mutilated" isn't quite accurate.
PS:
These are NOT being promoted as something they are not. At this point they are not being promoted at all. But if and when they are, they will be advertised as privately-modified Silver Eagle coins (which is entirely accurate). The coins are NOT counterfeits. They are genuine US Silver Eagles that have been altered. There is a significant difference between "counterfeit" and "altered", especially in terms of legality.
I could have sworn I read somewhere about the rules of this message board concerning the "Original Post"
Maybe some of you didn't read it.
In my opinion, "mutilated" is completely accurate and appropriate – your mutilations are “crude and/or random damage to the coin.” You propose to mutilate legal tender and place yourself in a position little different than Chinese making "remanufactured Trade Dollars" and the like.
Additionally, you have the gall to stick your initials on the mutilated coins as if you designed them. What a disturbed perversion…..
<< <i>> I can't believe no proof gold/silver eagles for another year.
Not so fast
Here are photos (NOT "photshopped") of a genuine US Mint 2009 uncirculated Silver Eagle
(privately "re-manufactured" as a proof):
Marketing and sales of these pieces is yet to be determined. >>
I hope you've got a good lawyer if you're planning on selling those as is.
They might be legal, just as the various coins altered by the addition of paint and/or stickers are legal, but they would be a pox upon the hobby.
Daniel.......put down the transmogrifier ray, have a beer, and reflect upon the wisdom of this idea.
TD
<< <i>"Mutilated" implies crude and/or random damage to the coin. These are privately "re-manufactured", "counter-stamped", "overstruck". You can choose the term. But "mutilated" isn't quite accurate.
In my opinion, "mutilated" is completely accurate and appropriate – your mutilations are “crude and/or random damage to the coin.” You propose to mutilate legal tender and place yourself in a position little different than Chinese making "remanufactured Trade Dollars" and the like.
Additionally, you have the gall to stick your initials on the mutilated coins as if you designed them. What a disturbed perversion….. >>
The original designer's initials ("JM") are still there. The "DC" is a mint mark, placed where the US Mint puts the "W" on their proofs. Would you prefer that I not put a mint mark at all ? At least with the "DC", the origin is known. The alterations are anything but crude/random. You can ignore the coins. You should reserve your "disturbed perversion" label for those that really deserve it - like Catholic priests who molest children.
PS:
The Chinese are illegally making un-marked outright counterfeits of legal-tender US coins. I'm not making counterfieits, I'm legally altering common (genuine) US coins, and I'm marking them in such a way that they can easily be identified. Not really any different than painted Silver Eagles or Silver Eagles with holograms stuck on them.
<< <i>Well....maybe Mr. Carr is pulling the collective leg, and these are all electronic creations of his design software, not real ASEs. >>
The photos are real. The coins, as shown, exist.
<< <i>perhaps they have the same reaction to colorized and hologram coins.... except maybe worse since these were made to appear PL when none were produced by the Mint. >>
I doubt that any painted or hologam-stickered Silver Eagle coin has ever gone up in value from the issue price, except for increses due to higher silver prices.
I think things could very well be different for these 2009-DC proofs, but no guarantees.
Before prceeding, I'm going to attempt to get the US Mint's reaction to them. I doubt they will like the idea, but I'm looking for confirmation of their legality.
<< <i>do they qualify as proofs? >>
Of course, the US Mint did not manufacture any 2009 PROOF Silver Eagles. Up to this point, all "bullion" Silver Eagles minted for mass distribution to distributors have not had any mint marks. However, all proof issues have a mint mark ("W", "P", or "S"). A few non-proof "uncirculated" Silver Eagles with "W" mint marks were also sold by the US Mint to collectors.
Many people have complained about the Mint not making any 2009 proof Silver Eagles - they had been made every year from 1986-2008. I'm attempting to fill that void (like any business person would do - supply a product that the market wants). But probably only a small fraction of Silver Eagle collectors would want my version, as a novelty piece - and I don't expect to sell a lot of them (if any).
But to answer your question, they look a lot like regular proof Silver Eagles. But I would call them a privately-altered "proof-like" version with a "DC" mint mark, made from genuine non-proof 2009 Silver Eagles that originally had no mint mark.
…sounds a lot like the excuse of people who whiz coins, or polish them, or laser to change the original surface, or putty, or add a mintmark or tool a coin – all mutilations of an original coin. I sure hope it has not become “Dr. Carr.”
WL halves have a lot of “holes” in the series. Why not mutilate some to fill those spots? ... no shiny “proof” 1935 halves?...no problem, just polish up a bunch and help collectors “fill that void.”
Do you actually believe ANY collector of ASEs, particularly slabbed ones, would put one of those crude abominations in their collection? What happens to the pride of ownership?
Given positive contributions of the past, one can only presume there has been some sort of traumatic event to place Mr. Carr on the path presented in earlier posts.
I have nothing more to say.
<< <i>I remember reading a post here from somebody who said they preferred collecting modern mint issues over the "classics" because they didn't have to deal with all the issues that collectors of older coins had to worry about- counterfeits, doctored coins, etc. I guess that's true, but it appears there are a whole new set of issues to worry about for the moderns collector, aren't there?
>>
......................................................................................................................
That may have been me commenting on why I liked moderns.
Yes I hate the shortage of product but make no mistake about it..............my wheels are turning watching for a chance to profit from the mints antics.
A very selfish/self serving part of me would like to see a late year low mintage run that i could profit from.
I suspect I'm not alone.....................
<< <i>… attempting to fill that void (like any business person would do - supply a product that the market wants).
…sounds a lot like the excuse of people who whiz coins, or polish them, or laser to change the original surface, or putty, or add a mintmark or tool a coin – all mutilations of an original coin. I sure hope it has not become “Dr. Carr.”
WL halves have a lot of “holes” in the series. Why not mutilate some to fill those spots? ... no shiny “proof” 1935 halves?...no problem, just polish up a bunch and help collectors “fill that void.”
Do you actually believe ANY collector of ASEs, particularly slabbed ones, would put one of those crude abominations in their collection? What happens to the pride of ownership?
Given positive contributions of the past, one can only presume there has been some sort of traumatic event to place Mr. Carr on the path presented in earlier posts.
I have nothing more to say. >>
The difference is that the "coin doctors" do their work to deceive and defraud. They don't put a visible identifying mark on their work. They don't tell the buyers about the work. I'm not "mutilating" a rare collector coin. 35 million 2009 Silver Eagles exist.
<< <i>I'm not "mutilating" a rare collector coin. 35 million 2009 Silver Eagles exist. >>
repurposing -- appropriating
<< <i>How much do these coins weigh after they are gelded? >>
Exactly the same as before. No metal is added or removed.
Out of curiosity I just weighed 3 random 2009-DC proofs and
they all registered exactly 31.2 grams each.