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A Numismatic Journey... The excitement of the hunt... The reward... a "new" R-6+ Die Marri
SeaEagleCoins
Posts: 3,262 ✭
First, I would like to present a little background to this recent "discovery"...
I have always been fascinated by coins... primarily old ones and especially early US... ever since I was a little "pisher"
... my interest numismatically, has been more from a socio-economic viewpoint than a technical one.
An obvious doubling or die clash has always gotten the collector in me excited, yet my interest in subtle die variances has only been recent. An amazingly original old coin that has many interesting stories to tell will always excite the collector in me... die clashes and doubling, even when common, can still get me worked up... the same does not occur with me when I come across some die variety that requires major magnification and a road map to find... but sometimes the hunt can consume me... and the destination can be worth the trip... as in this case...
When I began setting up at shows around 5 years ago, I knew far less than I do today... for instance, I owned some nice original Bust Halves yet had never heard of Overton
... the first time I set up at the Parsippany show in New Jersey, I... of course... was cherry picked on at least more than one occasion... the first day there, a dealer, whom I later found out, was a Bust Half specialist, looked over my display... asked for prices on 3 or 4 of my Bust Halves... he did not quibble and bought them... I was pleased as I had made a profit... around a half hour later, he came back and said " Dude, you need to get an Overton book and learn to use it"... I asked him what he meant... he rolled his eyes and explained... LOL... he ended by saying "If I come back in the future and see you have still not attributed your Bust Halves, I will continue to cherry pick you... I would have paid much more for the coins I bought... learn or leave money on the table"... he never told me what he "found"... but I did buy the book and did learn how to use it...
Eventually I added the Peterson book and many others to my library... and now I enjoy searching thru my coins and the stories around them have gained more texture and deeper meaning...
Flash forward a few years when a vest pocket dealer began working with me... quite often I found little in his offerings... but every now and then he would pop up with a nice coin or two and at a fair price... I began to show him the types of coins I really got excited about and he made a point to search them out for me... sometimes with success...
On a few occasions he would present some Bust Halves... I noted that he never had them attributed... and tried to pass on the lesson taught to me... he said he had no interest in such things... had no intention of buying the Overton book... that varieties were not his thing... I pressed the issue a few more times and finally gave up... meanwhile, he never came up with much more than common R-1 and occasional R-2 or 3 varieties... but some nice looking material, none-the-less...
Now on to the recent Parsippany show, earlier this month... I have been especially busy at this show for a number of months now... this show was not an exception... this gentleman approached my table early on... he had not had much of interest for several months... we had chatted at recent shows but had not done much business... he told me he had one new coin that he was pretty sure I would like... and that he could sell it for a fair price... I said "Sure, I'd like to see it"... it was a nice original, somewhat crusty Bust Half in choice XF... I looked it over... asked the price... liked the price and bought it... after thanking him and some general pleasantries, I put it in my newp box and on with the show...
A few days later, I pulled out my newps and began to go through them... this is a pleasurable time for me, as this is when the collector in me gets a good workout... grading and attributing... possibly "grazing" for an interesting addition to my personal collection (which is mainly a place for "wayward" coins... nice lookers but with some issue or other)...
Anyway... I come to this Bust Half... looking at the date, I sort of groan... it is an 1827... as these can be tough to attribute sometimes, with many choices to wade through... at least the Peterson book with the quick find charts, makes the task a bit easier... still, after a half hour, getting it narrowed down to a few possibilities, I began to get a bit of a "Sheldon" headache, as I call it ... I put the books and coin away and figured I'd get back to it later...
A few days later I went back... after some more process of elimination... I had it narrowed down to two probable choices... one was an R-3 marriage and the other an R-6, according to the Overton book... I was not willing to accept it might be an R-6 at this point and had no idea what kind of premium this would carry... I got a small flutter in my gut... shook it off and put the coin away again...
Now a few days later, I decided to get this all sorted out... cleared my desk... stiff cup of coffee... total lighting... all loupes and I got down to business... first, I told my cats to stay clear and not bother me LOL... this time they actually listened ... more LOL...
This time I pulled up the Heritage archives... found an example of the R-3 and after a few minutes became convinced that "my" coin was not that Marriage... now I was getting excited...
I could not find an example of the R-6 at the Heritage site... I looked at the sparse info in Peterson and the terse description in Overton for the R-6... I thought... "This has to be it... by process of elimination, I have ruled out the other choices... but I'm still not convinced"... and besides, what would this mean in terms of value... would it double or maybe triple? (well, I am a dealer too, ya know )
Finally, I simply googled the date and Overton #...
1827 O-148 ...
...and lo and behold, I get a hit... to a collection of Die marriages sold thru B&M around 8 years ago... complete with pics and some descriptions... I quickly confirmed the "rule outs" with these pics and then gingerly clicked on the O-148... heart beat speeds up... palms a bit clammy... nervously twitching in my chair... I looked at the pics... looked at "my" coin and then read the description... now my jaw kinda fell a bit... my eyes widened... holy *%#& ... wow...
Still not ready to accept it all and celebrate,,, I quickly picked up the phone and called a good friend of mine ( I'm glad to say) ... Mike Fey ... I tried to remain calm and told him of my "possible discovery"... he, along with his son, pulled out his research papers and the appropriate books and started shooting questions at me regarding key diagnostics... after a while he said "I think you have it"... and it looks like it might be the 148a, as the letter "F" in HALF on the edge lettering is mostly obliterated... only a few examples out the 12 known have this diagnostic...
As providence would have it, the New Jersey Numismatic Society meeting (we are both members) was meeting that night... we agreed to meet there and look it over together... we did and after much scrutiny on his part... he shot me a big grin and gave me a thumbs up ... "this is it... congratulations" ...
Now for the last leg of the hunt/journey... to have it authenticated and slabbed/graded by a TPG... which one? Considering the two real options became a bit ironic... PCGS would acknowledge the "a" BUT their holder would then cover up the reason for the "a" ... the TPG from across the street would not acknowledge the "a" (which I learned in a phone call to a fellow society member, David Lange... their "head" attributor) ... BUT their holder would allow the reason for the "a" to be seen...
As you can see from the pics below, I opted for the holder from across the street... I overnited the coin for a walk through this past Tuesday... grades and pics in on Thursday afternoon... it is now on its way back to me... and I am a happy camper, to say the least... still a bit numb and dreamlike about it... yet very happy...
edited to add... Thank you rld14 for hosting these pics in your PB account
I have always been fascinated by coins... primarily old ones and especially early US... ever since I was a little "pisher"
... my interest numismatically, has been more from a socio-economic viewpoint than a technical one. An obvious doubling or die clash has always gotten the collector in me excited, yet my interest in subtle die variances has only been recent. An amazingly original old coin that has many interesting stories to tell will always excite the collector in me... die clashes and doubling, even when common, can still get me worked up... the same does not occur with me when I come across some die variety that requires major magnification and a road map to find... but sometimes the hunt can consume me... and the destination can be worth the trip... as in this case...
When I began setting up at shows around 5 years ago, I knew far less than I do today... for instance, I owned some nice original Bust Halves yet had never heard of Overton
... the first time I set up at the Parsippany show in New Jersey, I... of course... was cherry picked on at least more than one occasion... the first day there, a dealer, whom I later found out, was a Bust Half specialist, looked over my display... asked for prices on 3 or 4 of my Bust Halves... he did not quibble and bought them... I was pleased as I had made a profit... around a half hour later, he came back and said " Dude, you need to get an Overton book and learn to use it"... I asked him what he meant... he rolled his eyes and explained... LOL... he ended by saying "If I come back in the future and see you have still not attributed your Bust Halves, I will continue to cherry pick you... I would have paid much more for the coins I bought... learn or leave money on the table"... he never told me what he "found"... but I did buy the book and did learn how to use it...Eventually I added the Peterson book and many others to my library... and now I enjoy searching thru my coins and the stories around them have gained more texture and deeper meaning...
Flash forward a few years when a vest pocket dealer began working with me... quite often I found little in his offerings... but every now and then he would pop up with a nice coin or two and at a fair price... I began to show him the types of coins I really got excited about and he made a point to search them out for me... sometimes with success...
On a few occasions he would present some Bust Halves... I noted that he never had them attributed... and tried to pass on the lesson taught to me... he said he had no interest in such things... had no intention of buying the Overton book... that varieties were not his thing... I pressed the issue a few more times and finally gave up... meanwhile, he never came up with much more than common R-1 and occasional R-2 or 3 varieties... but some nice looking material, none-the-less...
Now on to the recent Parsippany show, earlier this month... I have been especially busy at this show for a number of months now... this show was not an exception... this gentleman approached my table early on... he had not had much of interest for several months... we had chatted at recent shows but had not done much business... he told me he had one new coin that he was pretty sure I would like... and that he could sell it for a fair price... I said "Sure, I'd like to see it"... it was a nice original, somewhat crusty Bust Half in choice XF... I looked it over... asked the price... liked the price and bought it... after thanking him and some general pleasantries, I put it in my newp box and on with the show...
A few days later, I pulled out my newps and began to go through them... this is a pleasurable time for me, as this is when the collector in me gets a good workout... grading and attributing... possibly "grazing" for an interesting addition to my personal collection (which is mainly a place for "wayward" coins... nice lookers but with some issue or other)...
Anyway... I come to this Bust Half... looking at the date, I sort of groan... it is an 1827... as these can be tough to attribute sometimes, with many choices to wade through... at least the Peterson book with the quick find charts, makes the task a bit easier... still, after a half hour, getting it narrowed down to a few possibilities, I began to get a bit of a "Sheldon" headache, as I call it
... I put the books and coin away and figured I'd get back to it later...A few days later I went back... after some more process of elimination... I had it narrowed down to two probable choices... one was an R-3 marriage and the other an R-6, according to the Overton book... I was not willing to accept it might be an R-6 at this point and had no idea what kind of premium this would carry... I got a small flutter in my gut... shook it off and put the coin away again...
Now a few days later, I decided to get this all sorted out... cleared my desk... stiff cup of coffee... total lighting... all loupes and I got down to business... first, I told my cats to stay clear and not bother me LOL... this time they actually listened ... more LOL...
This time I pulled up the Heritage archives... found an example of the R-3 and after a few minutes became convinced that "my" coin was not that Marriage... now I was getting excited...
I could not find an example of the R-6 at the Heritage site... I looked at the sparse info in Peterson and the terse description in Overton for the R-6... I thought... "This has to be it... by process of elimination, I have ruled out the other choices... but I'm still not convinced"... and besides, what would this mean in terms of value... would it double or maybe triple? (well, I am a dealer too, ya know
)Finally, I simply googled the date and Overton #...
1827 O-148 ...
...and lo and behold, I get a hit... to a collection of Die marriages sold thru B&M around 8 years ago... complete with pics and some descriptions... I quickly confirmed the "rule outs" with these pics and then gingerly clicked on the O-148... heart beat speeds up... palms a bit clammy... nervously twitching in my chair... I looked at the pics... looked at "my" coin and then read the description... now my jaw kinda fell a bit... my eyes widened... holy *%#& ... wow...
Still not ready to accept it all and celebrate,,, I quickly picked up the phone and called a good friend of mine ( I'm glad to say) ... Mike Fey ... I tried to remain calm and told him of my "possible discovery"... he, along with his son, pulled out his research papers and the appropriate books and started shooting questions at me regarding key diagnostics... after a while he said "I think you have it"... and it looks like it might be the 148a, as the letter "F" in HALF on the edge lettering is mostly obliterated... only a few examples out the 12 known have this diagnostic...
As providence would have it, the New Jersey Numismatic Society meeting (we are both members) was meeting that night... we agreed to meet there and look it over together... we did and after much scrutiny on his part... he shot me a big grin and gave me a thumbs up ... "this is it... congratulations" ...
Now for the last leg of the hunt/journey... to have it authenticated and slabbed/graded by a TPG... which one? Considering the two
real options became a bit ironic... PCGS would acknowledge the "a" BUT their holder would then cover up the reason for the "a" ... the TPG from across the street would not acknowledge the "a" (which I learned in a phone call to a fellow society member, David Lange... their "head" attributor) ... BUT their holder would allow the reason for the "a" to be seen...As you can see from the pics below, I opted for the holder from across the street... I overnited the coin for a walk through this past Tuesday... grades and pics in on Thursday afternoon... it is now on its way back to me... and I am a happy camper, to say the least... still a bit numb and dreamlike about it... yet very happy...
edited to add... Thank you rld14 for hosting these pics in your PB account
Re: Slabbed coins - There are some coins that LIVE within clear plastic and wear their labels with pride... while there are others that HIDE behind scratched plastic and are simply dragged along by a label. Then there are those coins that simply hang out, naked and free 
0
Comments
<< <i>Congrats...very good story and cool coin. Have you come up with a value for it? >>
To the best of my knowledge... past known and recorded sales... the last one in 2004... the range in grade has been VG8 to XF45... only one AU known and only one other 45 besides this one... all sales have ranged between $9000 and around $14,500...
Thats awesome.........congrats
That is one tough coin...well done! It couldn't of happened to a nicer guy!
Lane
See http://www.doubledimes.com for a free online reference for US twenty-cent pieces
next time you need a picture reference try here.
http://coinzip.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=lebust
the particular 148 is not shown, but some resourceful folks have COMPOSED
one using pictures of the obverse and reverse used, that they got off other varieties.
myCCset
Thanks for sharing.
Website-Americana Rare Coin Inc
On top of that he is a heck of a coin dealer, and truly one of the "good guys".
Congrats bro, will I get to see it at Parsippany?
Oh, and shame about the holder..
I almost forgot... it would appear that I get the honors...
YOU SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Youve made me want to get more books for my library to say the least now!
less than 100?
you are right about the vulture dealers picking the meat of the bones of the newbies
You said:
<< <i>and besides, what would this mean in terms of value... would it double or maybe triple? (well, I am a dealer too, ya know ) >>
Any non-dealer coin collector would similarly get excited in this way as well!
<< <i>whats an R-6?
less than 100?
you are right about the vulture dealers picking the meat of the bones of the newbies >>
I pm'd this link to sinin1 and thought others might want the link... it is an article regarding the Coin Rarity Scale
Coin Rarity Scale
As for this coin, to the best of my present knowledge, as of 2002 when the only other XF45 went up for auction, there were 12 known examples... only a few had the "a" diagnostic.
There may be a few others found since then...perhaps someone in the John Reich Society would know... another forum member communicated with me today thru PM regarding this coin and thread... from what I gather, there are a few others... not all sales are public knowledge
As for the "vulture" thing... I do not consider a cherry picker a vulture...whether a dealer or a collector... an opportunist, perhaps... but not a vulture... knowledge is the key... if it is neglected, the potential rewards are never realized...
An additional ironic side note to the story... I remembered it this afternoon... shortly after I purchased this coin, another dealer and fellow forum member, came by to buy some coins from me. I showed him this coin and offered it for a small profit... THANKFULLY he declined... I will have to tease him about it next time I see him... I will be gentle... and will thank him profusely...
...a continued lesson to drill into my head... never sell a coin until I have attributed it and educated myself on all relevant aspects of said coin...
so what are you going to do with it now?
<< <i>I wondered why you hadn't been posting much lately Larry...Now I know..you were too hyped for this find
OK... you are the 2nd person to ask "what will I do with it now?" ... first, I'm going to get her back from NGC... then I am going to have "my way" with her until I'm satisfied
Then I'm going to find her a real nice comfy "forever" home...
...ok... also 'cause I ain't done celebratin' yet...
Congratulations......good things do happen to good people. I always enjoy reading your posts, but this thread tops the cake! A great read, and like other's have already stated, this couldn't have happened to a better person. See you in Parsippany!
Dan
Connor Numismatics Website
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Best part about this rarity is its condition. Usually when finds like this show up. They are holed, cleaned or just low grade. This is the best of both worlds.
That was a great read.
Somewhere there is a happy collector because there certainly weren't enough 1827 O-148's around for everyone who wanted one to get one.
In the words of Michael Fey, "Knowledge is power".
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
BHNC member # 184!
http://www.busthalfaddict.com
Assuming that this goes Hollywood, who would you like to play you on the silver screen?
Didn't wanna get me no trade
Never want to be like papa
Working for the boss every night and day
--"Happy", by the Rolling Stones (1972)
<< <i>I've been thinking about Larry's story, and about the dealer picking him when he was new. I don't want this to get off topic and take away from what it is, but we talk a lot here about ethics and how do you handle such and such a situation. I thought that the dealer did the right thing when he cherry picked him but then told him to get an Overton guide and use it. There's nothing like a school of hard knocks education to get your attention! >>
So true... I hold no grudge what-so-ever with that dealer... as a matter of fact, I intend to show him the coin and thank him for that lesson...
<< <i>Great story and coin! I would delighted to place a sticker on that coin, as well as this Numismatic Tale.
Assuming that this goes Hollywood, who would you like to play you on the silver screen?
Stickers humbly accepted
...and since you ask... just for fun... because I have always harbored the notion that I am really a black lesbian trapped in a white man's body
<< <i>Great find for sure. Very tough to say the least in high grade. Thanks for sharing it with the forum. >>
My pleasure...
...and welcome to the forum... I see you've been signed up since November and am honored that my post/thread got your first post...
Great find, Larry.
<< <i>Somewhere there is a happy collector because there certainly weren't enough 1827 O-148's around for everyone who wanted one to get one. >>
I sure wish that I could afford to be that happy collector.