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Thread Title: Lurid comment from the early November Legend Market Report...
Created On Sunday November 01, 2009 7:26 PM
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scoobydeux
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Sunday November 01, 2009 7:26 PM

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"..As much as many dealers dispise CAC, the public clearly has embraced it. "


Now this comment truly surprised me. Dealers hate the CAC?? Huh?? I thought the whole point was to squeeze PCGS money out of NGC+CAC coins at the same grade (and to squeeze more money out of properly graded PCGS coins). Wouldn't all dealers embrace this concept? And wouldn't John Q. Public prefer not to pay a premium for the little green sticker??

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tradedollarnut
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Sunday November 01, 2009 7:40 PM

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You thought wrong.

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mrpotatoheadd
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Sunday November 01, 2009 7:46 PM

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<< I thought the whole point was to squeeze PCGS money out of NGC+CAC coins at the same grade (and to squeeze more money out of properly graded PCGS coins). >>

I'm pretty sure I've read posts from collectors who submitted their coins to CAC, too.

<< Wouldn't all dealers embrace this concept? >>

See my above comment.

<< And wouldn't John Q. Public prefer not to pay a premium for the little green sticker?? >>

Buyers would prefer to not pay a premium for something? Say it ain't so.


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savoyspecial
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Sunday November 01, 2009 7:50 PM

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>> And wouldn't John Q. Public prefer not to pay a premium for the little green sticker??>>


the consumer is receiving something beyond a sticker for the premium.......whether real or perceived, assurance is what is being purchased


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MrEureka
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Sunday November 01, 2009 8:18 PM

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.

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 Andy Lustig

USPatterns.com

Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.



Edited: Sunday November 01, 2009 at 8:19 PM by MrEureka

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tradedollarnut
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Sunday November 01, 2009 8:18 PM

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<< I was hoping for a lurid comment... >>



I'm still hoping for a lucid one.

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scoobydeux
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Sunday November 01, 2009 8:43 PM

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<< You thought wrong. >>



Obviously. But your terse observation hasn't helped me to understand the comment from the Legend report.

Look, I'm not trying to be personal or inflammatory here. I just don't understand why some dealers don't like the CAC, as I was under the impression that the CAC was a dealer driven phenomenon.

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Blackhawk
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Sunday November 01, 2009 8:43 PM

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I'm starting a new business that will tell you whether the girlfriend/boyfriend that you picked is attractive. Sure, you might think that they look OK, but I've got a few friends that fancy themselves as pretty good judges of human beauty (they need jobs too) and they'll be working with me on this venture. You wouldn't want to tell your friends that you didn't pick a winner, would you?

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scoobydeux
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Sunday November 01, 2009 8:45 PM

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<< >> And wouldn't John Q. Public prefer not to pay a premium for the little green sticker??>>


the consumer is receiving something beyond a sticker for the premium.......whether real or perceived, assurance is what is being purchased >>



Ok, I see this facet of the point. But what about the dealers "despising" the CAC??

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tradedollarnut
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Sunday November 01, 2009 9:00 PM

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<<

<< >> And wouldn't John Q. Public prefer not to pay a premium for the little green sticker??>>


the consumer is receiving something beyond a sticker for the premium.......whether real or perceived, assurance is what is being purchased >>



Ok, I see this facet of the point. But what about the dealers "despising" the CAC?? >>



Certain dealers have made fortunes over the years by playing the crackout game - taking PQ coins that they purchased at one level and resubmitting them until they make the next grade up. The CAC seeks to reduce the reward of this practice by paying the predominant owners of those PQ coins (collectors) more for them thus reducing the spread to the next grade while at the same time screening out many of the deceptive practices those dealers committed on coins in order to help them upgrade.

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Bear
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Sunday November 01, 2009 9:02 PM

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I WANNA GOLD BEAN!!!

ALL I GET IS GREEN BEANS!!

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Camelot

Edited: Sunday November 01, 2009 at 9:03 PM by Bear

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scoobydeux
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Monday November 02, 2009 1:07 AM

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<< Certain dealers have made fortunes over the years by playing the crackout game - taking PQ coins that they purchased at one level and resubmitting them until they make the next grade up. >>



Doesn't this practice only work if the uneducated collector is willing to pay for a numerical grade as opposed to the coin itself?




<< The CAC seeks to reduce the reward of this practice by paying the predominant owners of those PQ coins (collectors) more for them thus reducing the spread to the next grade while at the same time screening out many of the deceptive practices those dealers committed on coins in order to help them upgrade. >>



By "deceptive practices" I assume that you mean "doctoring."

Hmmm.

Ms Sperber frequently complains about "puttied" gold in TPG holders. Now I do not know anything about gold, but are we saying that the graders at PCGS and NGC miss this type of enhancement, or are we arguing in regards to what is a market acceptable enhancement and what is not?

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TwoSides2aCoin
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Monday November 02, 2009 5:51 AM

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<< You thought wrong. >>



Has the OP been introduced to any of CAC's owners ?

These informal introductions are most entertaining.



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PrivateCoinCollector
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Monday November 02, 2009 5:55 AM

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<< I WANNA GOLD BEAN!!!

ALL I GET IS GREEN BEANS!! >>





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  • Morgan Herd
  • TO Gold Mine

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    ksteelheader
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    Monday November 02, 2009 6:07 AM

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    <<

    <<

    << >> And wouldn't John Q. Public prefer not to pay a premium for the little green sticker??>>


    the consumer is receiving something beyond a sticker for the premium.......whether real or perceived, assurance is what is being purchased     >>



    Ok, I see this facet of the point. But what about the dealers "despising" the CAC??     >>



    Certain dealers have made fortunes over the years by playing the crackout game - taking PQ coins that they purchased at one level and resubmitting them until they make the next grade up. The CAC seeks to reduce the reward of this practice by paying the predominant owners of those PQ coins (collectors) more for them thus reducing the spread to the next grade while at the same time screening out many of the deceptive practices those dealers committed on coins in order to help them upgrade.     >>



    Wasn't there a dealer that PCGS cracked a coin for at a big show and then conserved the coin and it ended up grading much higher?

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    crypto79
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    Monday November 02, 2009 6:16 AM

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    I could see resentment from dealers as the prevalence of other peoples options being sought by consumers lessens the impact of their voices. I have seen dealers tell people crazy things but it is hard not to come off contrived when someone asks why isn't thing graded by XXXX or XXX if it is so great. I saw a dealer trying to push a PCGS MS62 21 peace dollar off on someone once, the slab said "high relief" and the dealer was telling the customer that PCGS only put that on the top 1% of struck 21's, Needless to say the coin wasn't the best.

    That being said when you have a thoroughly examined coin it will be harder to up sale by the dealer thus cutting into a harder and harder field to get into as most collectors have access to the auctions as well. How can one sell something as under graded when two (more respected then the dealer) graders are saying that it is nice but only at a certain level. Or how can you push as PQ when it failed to CAC but to maximize profit one must submit.


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    tradedollarnut
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    Monday November 02, 2009 6:43 AM

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    <<

    << Certain dealers have made fortunes over the years by playing the crackout game - taking PQ coins that they purchased at one level and resubmitting them until they make the next grade up. >>



    Doesn't this practice only work if the uneducated collector is willing to pay for a numerical grade as opposed to the coin itself?




    << The CAC seeks to reduce the reward of this practice by paying the predominant owners of those PQ coins (collectors) more for them thus reducing the spread to the next grade while at the same time screening out many of the deceptive practices those dealers committed on coins in order to help them upgrade. >>



    By "deceptive practices" I assume that you mean "doctoring."

    Hmmm.

    Ms Sperber frequently complains about "puttied" gold in TPG holders. Now I do not know anything about gold, but are we saying that the graders at PCGS and NGC miss this type of enhancement, or are we arguing in regards to what is a market acceptable enhancement and what is not?     >>



    Fresh putty is VERY deceptive and hard to catch. I'm sure they do a very good job at attempting to screen it out, but it's a fact that they don't catch all of it.

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    Connecticoin
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    Monday November 02, 2009 7:01 AM

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    <<

    <<

    <<

    << >> And wouldn't John Q. Public prefer not to pay a premium for the little green sticker??>>


    the consumer is receiving something beyond a sticker for the premium.......whether real or perceived, assurance is what is being purchased     >>



    Ok, I see this facet of the point. But what about the dealers "despising" the CAC??     >>



    Certain dealers have made fortunes over the years by playing the crackout game - taking PQ coins that they purchased at one level and resubmitting them until they make the next grade up. The CAC seeks to reduce the reward of this practice by paying the predominant owners of those PQ coins (collectors) more for them thus reducing the spread to the next grade while at the same time screening out many of the deceptive practices those dealers committed on coins in order to help them upgrade.     >>



    Wasn't there a dealer that PCGS cracked a coin for at a big show and then conserved the coin and it ended up grading much higher?     >>



    The "Magic Felt Pad" story? If I recall correctly, that one is still shrouded in mystery.

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    tradedollarnut
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    the magic felt pad coin didn't upgrade - it just went from a filmy coin to a decent coin.

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    ksteelheader
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    Monday November 02, 2009 7:52 AM

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    << the magic felt pad coin didn't upgrade - it just went from a filmy coin to a decent coin. >>



    So, it upgraded in price?

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