My stuff on PCGS CoinFacts...and a little controversy

homerunhall · October 28, 2009 9:39AM

Hello Everyone,

Been a while. Sorry I don't post more, but I've really been spending a lot of time on PCGS CoinFacts. There are a lot of cool coin stories posted by the contributing experts. Here's one I did on the 1896-S Morgan dollar...actually make that the 1896-S Morgan dollar...

The incredible MS69 coin surfaced at a Mid-West coin show in the 1980's. Dealer Chuck Walanka asked me if I wanted to see two special coins and then he proceeded to show me the 1884-S later graded by PCGS MS68 and the 1896-S later graded by PCGS MS69!!!!! Needless to say, I was virtually speechless. I bought the coins for what was a big price at the time...I think I paid him $40,000 for the pair. I sold both coins to collector George Bodway. Later, Jack Lee bought the Bodway collection intact, combining the two best Morgan dollar collections of the time into one. Jack continued to upgrade his set, building the greatest Morgan dollar set of all-time.

The 1896-S is one of the most amazing coins I've handled in my career. When I first saw it I couldn't believe my eyes...it has absolutely flawless, mark-free surfaces. What a coin! I was really glad the late George Bodway got the coin as he was very passionate about his coins and he was a really genuinely nice man. Ditto the late Jack Lee, one of the true gentlemen of the coin community.

Here's a little controversy...do naturally rainbow toned Peace dollars exist...I don't think so. Here's what I said on PCGS CoinFacts...

Note that I am of the very strong opinion that any 1921 Peace dollar...indeed any Peace dollar...that has any rainbow colors (blue, red, green, etc) is absolutely artificially toned. While not very scientific, my approach to toning on coins is to remember the colors I saw in the 1960's and 1970's and if a new look appears, it's artificial to me. This is kind of an "old school" approach and I may be wrong, but unless you believe global warming has created new colors for coins, it just seems illogical to me that new colors would suddenly appear naturally on coins.

So...I never saw a single Rainbow toned Peace dollar in the 1960s or 1970s, but of course I saw thousands of rainbow Morgans. Perhaps the silver was a little different, or handled a little different. You certainly don't see the white spots on Morgans that you see on 1922 and 1923 Peace dollars. Anyway...that's what I think.

I hope you'll like PCGS CoinFacts. It does cost $10 bucks a month, but I know you all can afford that

Check out PCGS CoinFacts. It is incredible information. If you sign up and don't like it...let me know and I'll send you a ten dollar bill for your trouble.

PCGS CoinFacts

HRH

JupitarCoins · October 28, 2009 9:41AM

I think its worth the $10 a month for all that information.

Ahrensdad · October 28, 2009 9:43AM

I started a thread about a week ago asking that you do just, post some of your memories like you did a couple years ago. Thanks for sharing.

PrivateCoinCollector · October 28, 2009 9:43AM

How about a 30 day free trail for Collector's club members? What is the down side?

cheezhed · October 28, 2009 9:44AM

It would be nice if the service was included in the platinum membership.

blu62vette · October 28, 2009 9:48AM

Thanks for the story. Interesting take on the Peace dollars. For those of us not around in the 60's or 70's it is always good to hear how coins have "changed".

WoodenJefferson · October 28, 2009 10:03AM

Glad to find out I'm not the only one who is not crazy when saying all these "rainbow" coins were out of the norm back in the 60's and 70's, they were considered "tarnished" and just didn't have the appeal they have now days.

Can't say that I ever remember seeing a Peace Dollar that had a significant amount of color, there were reddish brown ones, but the delineated colors you'd see on Morgans were just not there on the bland Peace buxs.

Going into the 60's, it's pretty amazing that some casinos were still using silver dollars in their slot machines.

edit: yes, my keyboard went nutso for a second, never seen that before.

braddick · October 28, 2009 10:10AM

Interesting, but in the 1960's, say, Peace dollars were 40 years or so old. Now, 40+ years later, wouldn't it be possible to see naturally toned, colorful Peace dollars?

I'd think so. In the mid 1920's the Morgans of the 1880's were 40 years old.

leothelyon · October 28, 2009 10:13AM

The questions that come to mind, how would such coins tone and in what enviorment. Since most Morgans were stored in bags, what about the Peace dollars? And when were any of the dollars ever placed in paper rolls or how popular was it in those days, rolled silver dollars? All which begs the question, how did some coins get their toning? Rolled coins? Coin albums? Cabinet drawers? If there are simple explainations to the toning of some coins, I'd like to hear them. From anyone.

Leo

JupitarCoins · October 28, 2009 10:26AM

<< Glad to find out Iâ€™m not the only one who is not crazy when saying all these â€œrainbowâ€ coins were out of the norm back in the 60â€™s and 70â€™s, they were considered â€œtarnishedâ€ and just didnâ€™t have the appeal they have now days.

Canâ€™t say that I ever remember seeing a Peace Dollar that had a significant amount of color, there were reddish brown ones, but the delineated colors youâ€™d see on Morgans were just not there on the bland Peace buxs.

Going into the 60â€™s. itâ€™s pretty amazing that some casinos were still using silver dollars in their slot machines. >>

Is their something wrong with your keyboard?

RYK · October 28, 2009 10:41AM

<< How about a 30 day free trail for Collector's club members? What is the down side? >>

HRH: "Check out PCGS CoinFacts. It is incredible information. If you sign up and don't like it...let me know and I'll send you a ten dollar bill for your trouble.

PCGS CoinFacts

HRH"

I think that HRH is essentially offering you exactly that, but in reverse.

ColonialCoinUnion · October 28, 2009 10:45AM

I have 2 conclusions:

1: PCGS Coinfacts is a cool site.

2: People really like free stuff.

mkman123 · October 28, 2009 10:46AM

Can someone post a pic of the MS68 and MS69 morgans the OP was talking about? I never knew they had them in that high of a grade........

Coin Finder · October 28, 2009 10:53AM

Pat excellent point, we must renew our thinking now and again...

dbldie55 · October 28, 2009 10:54AM

<< Can someone post a pic of the MS68 and MS69 morgans the OP was talking about? I never knew they had them in that high of a grade........ >>

If you signed up for CoinFacts you would (or you could just sign up for a month of the Population Reports for $4.95)

WoodenJefferson · October 28, 2009 10:57AM

<< Interesting, but in the 1960's, say, Peace dollars were 40 years or so old. Now, 40+ years later, wouldn't it be possible to see naturally toned, colorful Peace dollars?

I'd think so. In the mid 1920's the Morgans of the 1880's were 40 years old. >>

How many colorfully toned Morgans from 1921 do you see?

blu62vette · October 28, 2009 11:03AM

<< 

<< Interesting, but in the 1960's, say, Peace dollars were 40 years or so old. Now, 40+ years later, wouldn't it be possible to see naturally toned, colorful Peace dollars?

I'd think so. In the mid 1920's the Morgans of the 1880's were 40 years old. >>

How many colorfully toned Morgans from 1921 do you see? >>

Aren't the 21 morgans the same planchet as the peace?

BECOKA · October 28, 2009 11:51AM

<< 

<< 

<< Interesting, but in the 1960's, say, Peace dollars were 40 years or so old. Now, 40+ years later, wouldn't it be possible to see naturally toned, colorful Peace dollars?

I'd think so. In the mid 1920's the Morgans of the 1880's were 40 years old. >>

How many colorfully toned Morgans from 1921 do you see? >>

Aren't the 21 morgans the same planchet as the peace? >>

Well, then how many colorfully toned 1921 Morgan's have you seen? I for one have not seen any which might mean the same mixture was used in the transition to Peace dollars.

Connecticoin · October 28, 2009 12:08PM

<< Interesting, but in the 1960's, say, Peace dollars were 40 years or so old. Now, 40+ years later, wouldn't it be possible to see naturally toned, colorful Peace dollars?

I'd think so. In the mid 1920's the Morgans of the 1880's were 40 years old. >>

Agreed. If HRH was looking mostly through mint bags, then there likely were not very many toned Peace Dollars. However, there were probably album toned ones in existence in the 70s, but not near as many as now, as the Peace Dollars place in Wayte Raymond and later Whitman albums in the 1940s through 1970s probably did not tone colorfully until the 1980s and 1990s.

JZrarities · October 28, 2009 12:10PM

I don't think by the 1960s that collecting Peace Dollars and storing them in Wayte Raymond albums
had become popular enough for them develop colorful rainbow album toning.
Not as much as Morgans anyway.

My study of early color auction catalogs has led me to this conclusion.

But, add another 40 years to that to today, and I believe that colorful album toned Peace Dollars do exist.

If this Peace Dollar (below) is Artificial, I sure would like to know, since I paid a ton of money for it...
...and it is the only colorful Peace Dollar I have seen or owned.

The obverse is mostly white with a little brown rim toning.

Goldbully · October 28, 2009 12:15PM

Thanks for posting, HRH....you got my attention!!!
Is she AT???

SUMORADA · October 28, 2009 1:07PM

HRH.....yes I subscribed to Coinfacts, very happy so far, I think that one of the best features is the "Show all photos" which helps those of us less gifted at determining grade a source for comparison, and in large high definition photos...

Also I think all of these changes / updated resources etc. are a positive for everyone, especially those of us that need these / this type of format to learn....I'll say it before anyone else does...
yes... pictures.....and big ones to boot!

I'm a Goldsmith by trade, I have always said.......and it's true..........that it is easier for me to make (fabricate) a nut and bolt out of gold then it is for me to screw a nut and bolt together!.......a lot of folks think that this type of comparison is silly, most of those folks cannot make (fabricate) a nut & bolt, we all have our limits, just in different ways...

So in closing I think the new Coin Facts is well worth the cost ........thank you!

homerunhall · October 28, 2009 2:43PM

Zrarities...Hard to tell from scans but I think your Peace dollar may be AT.

Goldbully...Your coin may be natural. I'm like 50/50 on it.

By the way...Morgans didn't get "old time" rainbow toning from coin folders. They got the toning from being stored in mint bags and the coin in the bags that were next to the bag material got toned. That's why you see crescent shapes to the toning. One coin would be partially against the bag material and partially covered by another coin.

Back in the day I saw lots of original bags of both Morgan and Peace dollars, lots of original rolls, and lots of sets of each in various coin folders. What I didn't see was any rainbow toning. i saw lots of golden toned Peace dollars but no rainbow.

Re PCGS CoinFacts...we launched before it was totally complete because if you wait until something is perfect before launching you never launch. But we add info and images to Coinfacts every day. Just watch...I guarantee you'll be amazed.

Justacommeman · October 28, 2009 2:59PM

David if you really want controversy you should hang out in the forum more often.

On my first week on the forum I witnessed-----

more about 1901-S Barber coin shop quarter ettiquette then I ever thought possible

and

that some dude......... I won't name names......ok, his name is Longacre is apt to start a thread that leads to a brouhaha over what kind socks he should wear to a polo match and somehow tie it into coin collecting seamlessly

MJ

soty27 · October 28, 2009 5:44PM

Mr Hall,

With all due respect, your opinion on toned peace dollars is not so much Controversal but more of a blanket statement. You state that in the 50's and 60's you only saw gold or yellow toning, considering peace dollars were very young at that point its really no suprise. The idea and popularity of keeping coins in albums came much later. Its a known fact that some albums produce amazing toning on silver coins, would you call those album toned coins artificial? Its pretty common knowledge that the 1921 morgan is extremly hard to find with attractive toning, this is not due to the fact that they are doctored coins it simply took much much longer to tone considering all the changes at the mint that year. Similar to the peace dollars considering that was the year they started. Its a fact that silver will "tarnish" in an array of colors depending on environment. To actually state that peace dollars are immune to toning naturally in any other color then yellow or gold basically goes against the laws of chemistry, depending on your definition of "artificial toning"
Would you please elaborate or define your definition of artificially toned?

LeeG · October 28, 2009 6:54PM

<< Hello Everyone,

You certainly don't see the white spots on Morgans that you see on 1922 and 1923 Peace dollars. Anyway...that's what I think.

HRH >>

darktone · October 28, 2009 8:13PM

<< Zrarities...Hard to tell from scans but I think your Peace dollar may be AT. >>

<< Goldbully...Your coin may be natural. I'm like 50/50 on it. >>

Good answer! I agree nobody knows for sure but as a whole we know these coins did not exist in the past. The prices people pay for these amaze me- me included

.

MisterBungle · October 28, 2009 8:25PM

All toning is artificial. The question is whether it
is intentional or inadvertent.

And since there is hardly any way to determine
the intent, or lack therof...

Toning is not a state of the coin when it left the
die, and since it is not, the more toning a coin
has, the farther it should be from MS70.

Just my humble opinion, of course, hardly shared
by anyone it seems.

~

kryptonitecomics · October 28, 2009 9:59PM

Mr. Hall...I think you and PCGS have done a lot to further this hobby and protect buyers with your services however...

I find it completely irresponsible of you to basically come out and label peace dollars with color as AT because 40-50 years ago you didn't really see any??? You are absolutely entitled to your opinion and it's your forum but your opinion carries a lot of weight in this hobby and blanket statements like the one you posted here can cost folks a lot of money. I urge you to talk to some of the dealers of mainly toned material to get some more insight into what they were seeing in the 60's and 70's because the stories shared by them paint a different story.

Peace dollars with legit color are extremely rare and I absolutely agree now days that most of the raw Peace dollars seen on sites like Ebay are 100% AT and can not be mistake for NT coins but I have seen at least 50 to 100 peace dollars in the last 5 years that had very attractive natural toning. I am not in the practice of throwing the baby out with the bath water and I don't believe PCGS should be either. Clearly right now is a time of great change internally at PCGS as coins with color are being body bagged in record numbers.......protecting the hobby you know and love is one thing but PCGS's change of opinion on what constitutes AT, NT, MA in such a short period of time is costing it's customers thousands of dollars in submission fees.

darktone · October 28, 2009 10:14PM

there were no dealers that specialized in toned coins in the 60's and 70's. Color toned coins Did not start showing up in quantity until the mid 90's. Most of the toned coin dealers are small Internet dealers that have only been around a few years and really in my opinion are not qualified to say what is at or nt because they appeared in the market place only after all the colorful coins started appearing. They are however really good at knowing what is market acceptable.

kryptonitecomics · October 28, 2009 10:28PM

Mike Defalco has been specializing in toned coins for approximately 35 years.....I don't believe he is the only one but he may have been the first major dealer of this type of material?

crypto79 · October 28, 2009 11:08PM

<< All toning is artificial. The question is whether it
is intentional or inadvertent.

And since there is hardly any way to determine
the intent, or lack therof...

Toning is not a state of the coin when it left the
die, and since it is not, the more toning a coin
has, the farther it should be from MS70.

Just my humble opinion, of course, hardly shared
by anyone it seems.

~ >>

well said and it's the point most people miss. I for one think it is pretty funny that two of the people who use intentionally toned coins as their picture over their names are the ones that write preachy paragraphs objecting to an experts observations. Although I would try to protect my investment as well. I study peace dollars and many have speculated why they tone the way they do but the fact is that Millions and millions of peace dollars later the unquestionably original ones are tan-golden while the ones in high moisture get black with a smidge of purple.

My theory is what they used to wash the planchets prior to striking causes this, as if you take a worthless au22 and dip it several times and then do classic silver stuff ( albums, heat, sulfur, don't rinse dip) you can get color out of them. To the color people you just have to ask your self's if an over dipped( to get the tan off) 22 that someone put in a cheap album is AT or NT.

Goldbully- that one is close and I could see that being more or less original as it has the classic tan and black but at best it's a coin that was stored in a volatile environment. Not sure about the value added part but that is on the buyer.

kryptonitecomics · October 29, 2009 12:12AM

Crypto79...so you look at a posters avatar and can quickly decide that noit only are the coins AT but that the poster don't know what there talking about.....how lucky for you. Us mere mortals could never accomplish that feet. Even PCGS usually has to see a coin in hand to determine if it's AT or NT in hand.....oh that's right they did:

So unless you actually have a clue what you are talking about you might have more fun posting on the State spoons forum...I can provide a link if you like

If Mr.Hall were to come on here and state that any blast white coin 100 years or older has to have been dipped and cleaned then the folks that prefer older white type coins would jump up to defend what they collect....in the same vain, those of us who prefer toned coins have a right to defend what we like to collect.

DenverDave · October 29, 2009 12:42AM

<< All toning is artificial. The question is whether it
is intentional or inadvertent.>>

All White 50+ year old silver coins are artificial...

There is no question, it was intentional...

ziggy29 · October 29, 2009 12:45AM

<< All White 50+ year old silver coins are artificial...

There is no question, it was intentional... >>

I assume you're being sarcastic here to prove a point...

TwoSides2aCoin · October 29, 2009 12:51AM

Has anyone told Longacre that you're "the Man" ?

TonedCoinTrader · October 29, 2009 1:05AM

Uh Oh! I guess I better send this one back to PCGS for grade review huh?

NOT!

lcoopie · October 29, 2009 1:26AM

what if

a colorful, PCGS peace dollar, is sent back for
review
based upon the OP's comments

and is felt to be AT currently,

is the reimbursement based upon the purchase price
or the average graded price??

ProofArtworkonCircs · October 29, 2009 1:27AM

<< All White 50+ year old silver coins are artificial...

There is no question, it was intentional... >>

This is one of several statements made so far in this thread that I will disagree with.

In 1963 I went though a bag of 1878 S dollars. I presume that it had lain undisturbed in a treasury vault for 85 years. A bag undisturbed for 85 years is not something you would find today.

Most of the coins were blast white, so it is possible. Some were jet black on one edge and white on the other. In between was a narrow transition area of beautiful rainbow color that certainly made it a keeper. I don't know what the definition of a "rainbow Morgan" is, but I have certainly seen unintentional rainbow color on them..

MMMCOINSMMM · October 29, 2009 1:28AM

....

ProofArtworkonCircs · October 29, 2009 1:35AM

Welcome! Finally had to speak out, eh? Well spoken.

crypto79 · October 29, 2009 1:44AM

<< Crypto79...so you look at a posters avatar and can quickly decide that noit only are the coins AT but that the poster don't know what there talking about.....how lucky for you. Us mere mortals could never accomplish that feet. Even PCGS usually has to see a coin in hand to determine if it's AT or NT in hand.....oh that's right they did:

So unless you actually have a clue what you are talking about you might have more fun posting on the State spoons forum...I can provide a link if you like

If Mr.Hall were to come on here and state that any blast white coin 100 years or older has to have been dipped and cleaned then the folks that prefer older white type coins would jump up to defend what they collect....in the same vain, those of us who prefer toned coins have a right to defend what we like to collect. >>

And yes, I think your avatar is ridicules looking although mine isn't so hot these days either so I guess we push on that point.
I triple dog dare you to crack out your pretty coin and resubmit for an upgrade. I will pay for the submission and if it drops a grade point I will pay the difference. But it's an empty promises as I know for a fact that you would never dare and feel fortunate that it was submitted during loser times. I don't care that TPG used to cater to the color fans when it was super hot 5-10years ago. People abused their good will and tried getting more and more colorful stuff in the holders. Hey, if you want to pay moon money for a simple common date Morgan that was kept in cheep bags in dark rooms for a hundred years that's fine. Just don't get upset when entrepreneurs try to cater to your logic limited ways.

Since I don't know what I am talking about let's take a little trip to school my friend.
Tone is slang for Tarnish
Tarnish is a product of a chemical reaction between a metal and a nonmetal or compound, especially oxygen and sulfur dioxide. It is usually an oxide, the product of oxidation.
Tarnish in the case of silver is a word used to describe Silver Sulfide formation
Silver Sulfide(Ag2S) is formed by a reaction to Hydrogen Sulfide(H2S)
Hydrogen Sulfide is a naturally(and unnaturally) occurring in the atmosphere, hence Air
So in a nut shell Silver Sulfide is formed by contact exposed with the air(unavoidable)
Silver Sulfide is BLACK

All other colors are formed by different compounds and more or less avoidable and or caused from mishandling. Yes your pretties were mishandled. And you paid too much

RWB · October 29, 2009 1:48AM

There should be little difference in natural toning patterns between 1921 Morgans and most Peace dollars. The canvas bags and storage conditions were similar for all Pittman dollars.

Once the coins were removed from original bags, almost anything - natural and unnatural - could have occurred.

mr1931S · October 29, 2009 1:52AM

I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.

Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:

Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.

The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.

This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion.

soty27 · October 29, 2009 3:05AM

<< I am in agreement with HRH about toning on Peace Dollars.I don't recall ever seeing a Rainbow toned Peace Dollar being offered for sale in the '70's or '80's. Colorfully toned Morgan Dollars were around but the craze was not there to spend large amount of money on a common date Morgan Dollar just because of its toning.

Here is from the The Morgan and Peace Dollar Textbook by Wayne Miller:

Toned Peace dollars are much more scarce than toned Morgan dollars,and very seldom show bright, vivid colorations.This is due to the following factors:First, the toning of silver dollars is usually a long-term process.Being minted much more recently, Peace dollars did not have as much time to interact with the sulfur in the bags in which they were stored.Second, there is some evidence that the acid bath into which planchets were plunged after annealing to remove discoloring oxidation was more highly concentrated for Peace dollars,in order to maximize the frosty whiteness of the planchets.This could serve as a detriment to subsequent interaction of the silver planchet metal with sulfur or oxygen,thus retarding the toning process.

The fact of the matter is that a good many people will believe what they want to believe in spite of expert opinions to the contrary.

This collector will go with the experts and his own observations on this one.I would add that every collector of Morgan or Peace dollars should have a copy of Textbook in their library,in my opinion. >>

I was scanning this book in order to put this on here. As stated in this book due to several factors it was much harder for peace dollars to tone in a colorful pattern but none the less still very very possible. Mr hall I think your statement regarding peace dollar toning was absoloutly irresponsible coming from someone in your position. Considering your position at PCGS and the length of time you have been with pcgs its simply obsurd for you to make such a blanket statement and not even define your definition of artificial toning. Considering the impact something you say regarding numismatics has, its simply irresponsible for you to make such a statement like that. The amount of money you have cost collectors who trusted PCGS is unknown but I asssume the amount is staggering. People have trusted pcgs for years and years to grade thier coins in a market acceptable manner and now you come out as the pcgs president and say all peace dollars with any other toning then yellow or gold are artificial. How dare you say something like that after pcgs has graded and slabbed them for years and years. Do I now get a refund for all my peace dollars in pcgs plastic considering your statement has in turn made them worthless?

kryptonitecomics · October 29, 2009 3:25AM

<< 

<< Crypto79...so you look at a posters avatar and can quickly decide that noit only are the coins AT but that the poster don't know what there talking about.....how lucky for you. Us mere mortals could never accomplish that feet. Even PCGS usually has to see a coin in hand to determine if it's AT or NT in hand.....oh that's right they did:

So unless you actually have a clue what you are talking about you might have more fun posting on the State spoons forum...I can provide a link if you like

If Mr.Hall were to come on here and state that any blast white coin 100 years or older has to have been dipped and cleaned then the folks that prefer older white type coins would jump up to defend what they collect....in the same vain, those of us who prefer toned coins have a right to defend what we like to collect. >>

And yes, I think your avatar is ridicules looking although mine isn't so hot these days either so I guess we push on that point.
I triple dog dare you to crack out your pretty coin and resubmit for an upgrade. I will pay for the submission and if it drops a grade point I will pay the difference. But it's an empty promises as I know for a fact that you would never dare and feel fortunate that it was submitted during loser times. I don't care that TPG used to cater to the color fans when it was super hot 5-10years ago. People abused their good will and tried getting more and more colorful stuff in the holders. Hey, if you want to pay moon money for a simple common date Morgan that was kept in cheep bags in dark rooms for a hundred years that's fine. Just don't get upset when entrepreneurs try to cater to your logic limited ways.

Since I don't know what I am talking about let's take a little trip to school my friend.
Tone is slang for Tarnish
Tarnish is a product of a chemical reaction between a metal and a nonmetal or compound, especially oxygen and sulfur dioxide. It is usually an oxide, the product of oxidation.
Tarnish in the case of silver is a word used to describe Silver Sulfide formation
Silver Sulfide(Ag2S) is formed by a reaction to Hydrogen Sulfide(H2S)
Hydrogen Sulfide is a naturally(and unnaturally) occurring in the atmosphere, hence Air
So in a nut shell Silver Sulfide is formed by contact exposed with the air(unavoidable)
Silver Sulfide is BLACK

All other colors are formed by different compounds and more or less avoidable and or caused from mishandling. Yes your pretties were mishandled. And you paid too much >>

While I think I am wasting my time responding becuase you clearly don't get the fact that we don't all have to like the same things here goes...

First I don't still own my avatar coin but I really have no doubts that if I did and I was to send it in for another evaluation by PCGS that the result would be the same. Bag toning is bag toning....how you know the coin was subitted during a....as you put it "loser time" is laughable

<< Hey, if you want to pay moon money for a simple common date Morgan that was kept in cheep bags in dark rooms for a hundred years that's fine >>

If it was truly fine then you would not be posting here and would certainly not be commenting on my avatar. Fortunately for you....I could care less what you collect and what your avatar is becuase I would not presume to be able to judge anything about you based on such obscure information. Your words of course tell a different story....

<< 
Since I don't know what I am talking about let's take a little trip to school my friend.
Tone is slang for Tarnish
Tarnish is a product of a chemical reaction between a metal and a nonmetal or compound, especially oxygen and sulfur dioxide. It is usually an oxide, the product of oxidation.
Tarnish in the case of silver is a word used to describe Silver Sulfide formation
Silver Sulfide(Ag2S) is formed by a reaction to Hydrogen Sulfide(H2S)
Hydrogen Sulfide is a naturally(and unnaturally) occurring in the atmosphere, hence Air
So in a nut shell Silver Sulfide is formed by contact exposed with the air(unavoidable)
Silver Sulfide is BLACK >>

What is all this about....you post stuff a year one chemisty student could look up in a text book after ranting that my avatar is AT.....what does that prove??? Silver Sulfide is not always black...who told you that...

A thick layer of Silver sufide would appear black.....a thin layer would appear differently depending on the thickness of the layer and could be any color in the spectrum due to thin film interference?

Justacommeman · October 29, 2009 3:38AM

Yes, an absolute blanket statement seems wreckless

exceptions are the rarities in this case

I think there are more then germs of truth in Pat's earlier statement

PCGS's stance is harsh and is akin to throwing out the baby with the bath water

"All" of anything has a bad ring to it.................

I don't own a toned Peace dollar, but I understand why collectors covet them

I would have bought JZ rarities Peace dollar in a heart beat prior to the Hall outing

Yes, much damage has been done

The smell of smugness of the anti toned collectors reek

At the end of the day............just my humble opinion

MJ

crypto79 · October 29, 2009 3:43AM

<< . People have trusted pcgs for years and years to grade their coins in a market acceptable manner and now you come out as the pcgs president and say all peace dollars with any other toning then yellow or gold are artificial. How dare you say something like that after pcgs has graded and slabbed them for years and years. Do I now get a refund for all my peace dollars in pcgs plastic considering your statement has in turn made them worthless? >>

No what was once market acceptable in the wake of a large batch of colored coins after they broke up the GSA hoard(the main if not exclusive source of most "NT" coins, cheap holders not withstanding) is no longer PC and acceptable. PCGS is allowed to have a fluid standard that reflects the current culture.

mr1931S · October 29, 2009 3:50AM

now you come out as the pcgs president and say all peace dollars with any other toning then yellow or gold are artificial.

You might want to go back and carefully reread what Mr. Hall said.With all due respect,I don't think Mr. Hall said what you are claiming he said.

Wayne Miller in Textbook is not saying that any Peace dollar seen with rainbow toning has got to have gotten its toning by artificial means either.

The possibility is there that a few Peace dollar planchets somehow escaped the strong acid bath treatment and ended up next to the cloth in the mint bag.If this happened,the Peace dollar would naturally tone in the same fashion as the Morgan Dollar.

I'm speaking for myself here but I consider any toning that a silver dollar might have received after being put in a mint bag soon after being struck and before being removed many years later by person or persons opening the sealed bag is......Natural or NT.

Another possibility is that the mint used bags with different cloth for Peace dollars and 1921 Morgan dollars.Come to think of it,I don't see 1921 Morgans with the rainbow colors of earlier coins either.

kryptonitecomics · October 29, 2009 3:57AM

Crypto79...what are you like 7 years old???? Ouch I am really hurt by your cartoon.....I have said it before and I will say it again......we have some real brave folks that live behind their keyboards in the virtual world..... Do you need a hug or something???

Justacommeman · October 29, 2009 3:59AM

I would agree that 1921 Morgans with rainbow or attractive color are rare indeed.

However, in fact they do exist naturally albeit rare

This is taken from Sunnywood's registry set

It is well stated. MJ

Sunnywood's 1921 Morgan bio

Full text-

1921-D $1 MS66 PCGS # 7298 : While its Philadelphia and San Francisco counterparts are notoriously difficult to locate with anything other than ugly unattractive toning, the Denver issue of 1921 can be found nicely toned with suitable patience. Dealer Andy Kimmel reports that he has even seen banded rainbow bag toned '21-D Morgans, although none has been seen in the marketplace for many years. This coin has particularly nice pink and green colors, such as are occasionally found on toned Morgans, combined with very nice surfaces. As most collectors know, all the issues of 1921 generally come heavily abraded and bag-marked, so a technically clean piece is always a pleasure. From our friends at David Lawrence Rare Coins.

My stuff on PCGS CoinFacts...and a little controversy

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

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