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A proposed new classification system for toned coins

In a recent thread, I talked about the origins of color on toned coins, and discussed the thin film interference phenomenon, which gives rise to an array of possible toning colors that follow a standard progression correlating to the thickness of the toning layer.

Link to thread about the thin film color progression.

What follows is a proposed new classification system that uses this color progression to describe the toning on our coins concisely.

I have listed and assigned classification codes to the colors typically found along the thin film progression. While in theory there are infinite gradations, and multiple possible color cycles, in practice the eye distinguishes certain colors, and after a few cycles the toning appears violet, then black. So I have tweaked the list to include the colors actually seen on heavily toned rainbow coins. Here then is a list of color classes:

0 - (untoned; letter O or numeral zero; may have a slight bluish cast)
A - Light Gold
B - Medium Gold
C - Amber
D - Russet
E - Burgundy
F - Cobalt Blue (technically begins 2nd cycle of colors)
G - Light Blue (Cyan)
H - Pale Mint Green
I - Lemon Yellow
J - Sunset Yellow
K - Orange
L - Red
M - Magenta
N - Magenta Blue
P - Blue (technically begins 3rd cycle of colors)
Q - Blue-Green
R - Emerald Green
S - Gold (often over green)
T - Magenta (often over gold-green)
U - Deep Blue (technically begins 4th cycle of colors)
V - Deep Green (Forest Green)
W - Deep Magenta
X - Deep Purple to Violet and beyond
Y - Glossy Black
Z - Dull Black

Notice that I have reserved the letter "O" (alternately the numeral zero) for untoned. Otherwise I have used the whole alphabet in order. (The zero can be used instead of letter O in databases where we want to order the coins by toning classification; with the zero, a simple alphbetic sort will keep the untoned coins at the beginning of the list.)

The toning classification for one side of a coin will be one, two or three letters. If the context requires distinguishing between obverse and reverse, we can use an optional period "." in front of the obverse classification, and an optional slash "/" in front of the reverse classification.

For an untoned obverse the code is .0; for the reverse, /0. For a monochromatically toned obverse, "." followed by the appropriate single letter; for the reverse, slash followed by the appropriate single letter, such as /A for a coin reverse toned light gold. The entire coin can then be described as obverse class -slash - reverse class. So a coin with a light gold obverse and untoned reverse would be A/0

This use of the slash is similar to the old style of assigning split grades to the two sides of a coin, such as 63/65.

If the obverse or reverse covers two or more color categories, use the lower toning limit, followed by the upper toning limit. For example, a coin whose obverse runs from untoned to cobalt blue would be 0F, light gold to cobalt blue would be AF, and light blue or cyan to emerald green would be GR. For the reverse, you can use the optional slash preceding the classification: /AE, and so on. For the entire coin, again the obverse, the slash, and then the reverse: 0C/AD, AG/BF, and so on.

Sometimes the toning makes a jump to one of the last three categories, typically after reaching at least emerald green (category R). In that case I would append the X, Y, or Z accordingly. So an obverse progressing all the way from light blue to glossy black, showing all the intermediate categories, would just be GY, but if it progresses from light blue to emerald green and then jumps to glossy black, it would be GRY. In this way, you could have classifications such as AC/BRX, or ERZ/AR, and so on.

For most toners, we talk about one side or the other, and most will fall into a two-letter classification, so we will talk about a coin that is AE, or 0R, or GR, etc. This has the consequence that some coins could receive toning classifications that look like other numismatic descriptors, such as AT, NT, PQ, AU, BU. That is why I'm suggesting using the dot or slash in front of the two-letter classification. Otherwise, you will have to make it clear in the context that "AT" means a coin toned from light gold to magenta, and not "artificially toned."

Here are some examples. I am using Morgan dollars here, but this system can apply equally to all toned silver coins. Thin film colors also appear on nickel and copper coins, and even gold occasionally. On copper, some of the colors are different because of the interaction with the reflected color of the copper itself.

The classification system is interesting and fun to apply. Here are a few examples of how this would work:

imageimage

1892-CC PCGS MS66, obverse EH (burgundy in the recesses of the portrait through pale mint green), reverse FJ (cobalt blue through sunset yellow), whole coin is therefore EH/FJ. Some might argue the reverse goes to orange; that would be /FK. The toning classification can be somewhat subjective, just like grading.

image

1881-O PCGS MS65, the "Purple People Eater," obverse ranges from sunset yellow at 9 o'clock to deep blue, for example at BUS of PLURIBUS, classification JU.

image

1883-O obverse from light gold at 7:30 thru emerald green, gold, magenta, but then jumping to glossy black, classification AMY

image

1878 7/8 TF Strong, obverse ranges from medium gold around Miss Liberty's ear and hair, thru amber, russet, burgundy, cobalt blue to cyan, but progresses further at the top to pale mint green or lemon yellow. I would call this BI (med. gold to lemon yellow).

The colors can be a little subjective, and the gradations are infinite, so just as two people can disagree on whether a coin is 63 or 64, there might be disagreement whether to call a particular color medium gold or amber ... so what I classify as BI might conceivably be called CI by someone else. But even though nothing is absolute, the classification still tells you a lot about the coin.

Note that artifically toned coins can still obey the standard progression, and there are also some naturally toned coins that do not. This can happen if there are unusual contaminants present during storage, perhaps such as chlorine, or excess sulfur. Such coins may fit our generally accepted notions of natural toning, while still exhibiting some unusual colors. But the vast majority of toned silver coins will conform to the standard progression.

I am open to comments and suggestions.

Best,
Sunnywood
«1

Comments

  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
    Too confusing IMO.




    -Paul
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    For most coins, it's actually really simple. It's only wildly toned coins that get tougher to classify. Most coins range from untoned or light gold to russet or cobalt blue. The majority of coins will range from 0/0 (completely untoned on both sides) to something like AF/AF (light gold to cobalt blue, typical of peripheral album toning).

    Suggestion coinkid - post a toned coin and I will tell you the classification.
  • savoyspecialsavoyspecial Posts: 7,267 ✭✭✭✭
    i could see this being put to use in the future by TPGs.......neat concept!


    am i to assume that since Black is the last progression in the toning cycle it is also the least seldom encountered?

    www.brunkauctions.com

  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    savoy, on nicely toned coins, black at the end of the progression can be quite attractive, especially when it is glossy (i.e. there is still underlying luster). Some people call those coins "black beauties." And yes, it is rare. However, ugly dark or black toning in general is not so rare !! It is only rare in the context of an otherwise attractively toned and lustrous coin.
  • image
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭
    How about this one?


    image




    -Paul
  • IGWTIGWT Posts: 4,975
    Sunnywood -- You have come to a fairly complicated solution that seems to be in search of a problem. Why assign letters to colors; for example, why not just say amber instead of "C"? I can see how this service would help the colorblind (who probably aren't the largest portion of the toner collectors), but how would it help those who can see and differentiate colors for themselves?
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    Here are a few of Dale Friend's bust halves:

    image

    Toning classification CG/CG (amber to cyan both sides; you can see the prgression amber-russet-burgundy-cobalt blue-cyan)

    image

    This one pushes past cyan at the rims, see how light it gets there, almost to lemon yellow. I would call the obverse BH (medium gold to pale mint green), but the reverse is more toned in the center, so perhaps DH there. Overall BH/DH.

    image

    This one ranges from light gold to cyan on the obverse, but the reverse doesn't quite get past cobalt blue at the rims. Cyan is the lighter paler blue at the obverse rim. So AG/AF for this one.

    How about a TDN trade dollar? Here's a typical album toner with just a bit of cobalt blue on the obverse:

    image

    The classification would be AF/AD.
  • PreussenPreussen Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭
    Good Grief image -Preussen
    "Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
  • ILikeMercsILikeMercs Posts: 1,392


    << <i>Too confusing IMO.




    -Paul >>



    yeah, almost as confusing as VAM's. image
    imageDo not taunt Happy Fun Ball image
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    coinkid, that's medium gold to cyan on both sides, so BG/BG.

    IGWT, for rainbow-toned Morgans in particular, I think this would prove quite useful over time to classify and summarize the degree of rainbow toning. I think it is also quite interesting to anyone assembling a toned set in any silver series. Granted, it will not be so useful in shield nickels, although I did have an almost complete set of rainbow-toned proof shield nickels back in the day.

    For coins like this, it becomes interesting:

    image

    If you spend some time on Teletrade, where anything with a spot of color is called a "rainbow," then classification like this becomes useful. It's also of interest to those who specifically collect color. There are quite a few collectors who look for the wildest most colorful toning they can find, regardless of how many 1881-S Morgans they end up owning.

    I also think that understanding toning, and analyzing more coins for toning classification, makes one more aware of natural toning, and more likely to spot an AT coin.

    Sunnywood
  • RYKRYK Posts: 35,772 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am in the "too confusing" camp, but I laud the effort.

    Please classify my seated quarter and Trade dollar:

    image

    image
  • coinkid855coinkid855 Posts: 5,012 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>Too confusing IMO.




    -Paul >>



    yeah, almost as confusing as VAM's. image >>






    Got me there....image




    -Paul
  • RWBRWB Posts: 8,082
    The toning information is great, but I think the identification system is too complicated for any but members of the Society of Toned Morgan Collectors (STMC).The appeal of a toned coin is highly subjective – something not easy to convey in any such system. [The pictured coins are spectacular!]

    (Many of today’s collectors have a lot of trouble with EF and AU – I suspect your suggestion would lead to cerebral hemorrhages.)
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    RYK, the quarter ranges from amber to lemon yellow on the obverse, and pushes beyond to scattered magenta-blue on the reverse, classification CI/CN. Your trade dollar is basically medium gold B/B, but has a patch of anomalous deep toning. On that patch you can see the toning running all the way through the progression in several bands out to 4th cycle deep blue, which would make it BU/B. The patch is bizarre in terms of how extensive the toning is there, relative to the rest of the coin, and one wonders about the circumstances of its origin.

    Much simpler than VAM's, especially if you care more about beautiful color than microscopic die aberrations !! Of course, the VAM guys will find just the opposite to be true. Just as I don't bother classifying my Morgans by VAM, many collectors won't bother classifying their colors. But this could be a useful tool for those who do care.

    Of course, if it gets voted down by the majority as being too confusing or useless, then I will abandon the effort. That's why the thread title includes the word "proposed" !!

    Sunnywood


  • MrEurekaMrEureka Posts: 23,891 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sunnywood -- You have come to a fairly complicated solution that seems to be in search of a problem.

    I agree. Better just to look at the coin, or an image of the coin.

    Then again, if the TPGs were to start using this classification system, and if certain TPG-assigned color designations come to be worth a premium in the marketplace, or gain extra points in Set Registries, my answer would change.
    Andy Lustig

    Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.

    Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
  • BobSavBobSav Posts: 913 ✭✭✭
    Your joking right ?????

    gimme a break

    Bob
    Past transactions with:
    Lordmarcovan, WTCG, YogiBerraFan, Phoenin21, LindeDad, Coll3ctor, blue594, robkoll, Mike Dixon, BloodMan, Flakthat and others.
  • TomBTomB Posts: 20,689 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Deep Purple-Untoned-Deep Purple!!!imageimage
    Thomas Bush Numismatics & Numismatic Photography

    In honor of the memory of Cpl. Michael E. Thompson

    image
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,690 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I think many of us do not know our colors
    LCoopie = Les
  • Musky1011Musky1011 Posts: 3,899 ✭✭✭✭
    Just use

    awesome
    and
    ugly
    Pilgrim Clock and Gift Shop.. Expert clock repair since 1844

    Menomonee Falls Wisconsin USA

    http://www.pcgs.com/SetRegistr...dset.aspx?s=68269&ac=1">Musky 1861 Mint Set
  • TennesseeDaveTennesseeDave Posts: 4,737 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Is this one of those "Black beauties"?

    image

    edited to add a new pic.
    Trade $'s
  • GoldenEyeNumismaticsGoldenEyeNumismatics Posts: 13,187 ✭✭✭
    I invented a strikingly similar system for myself to use back in 2005. It's applications were too limited and too subjective, so I dropped it.
  • HalfStrikeHalfStrike Posts: 2,202 ✭✭✭
    I have seen slabbed coins completely change appearance within a year so I am not sure how toned coins can be classified. They can can grade based on wear but toning inside of a slab may change while wear cannot [excluding deterioration].
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Kudos, Sunnywood. That's a lot of work.
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I also appreciate the effort, but this is taking it too deep.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • MrSpudMrSpud Posts: 4,498 ✭✭✭
    What would be really cool would be to computerize your classification system, attach a colorimeter to the computer, and scan lots of toned coins into it. Use coins that are deemed to be natural for all series and coins that are deemed to be AT for all series. Then see if you can scan a new coin and have the computer tell you if it is AT or NT based on the probability that the particular toning pattern is typical or not for a series. For questionable coins where the computer can't tell, it could come up with something like 60% probability of being NT or something like that. Might take all day to do all this though image
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    A picture is worth a thousand words.

    Or in this case, a picture is worth a thousand toning classifications.

    What problem is this solving again? Toned coins for the colorblind? Selling monster toners without pictures?


    You will never replace the need for an image. How can your classification express the voids that can occur? The thumbprints? The gut reaction to the coin (pretty or vomity)?

    I guess I don't get it.
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    I'm surprised at how easily many of you are either confused, or disinterested in additional information about your coins. By these arguments, you don't need slabs, grades, variety attributions, or any other supplemental information; all you need is an image, or to look at the coin. This wasn't intended as something for TPG's to put on a slab, but rather to help understand the myriad color patterns that occur on toned coins.

    However, I hear the majority, so I won't bother pushing this any further than using it for my own purposes: to better understand the several hundred beautifully toned coins of various types that I own.

    I guess in the future I'll just stick to posting pretty pictures !!

    Sunnywood
  • adamlaneusadamlaneus Posts: 6,969 ✭✭✭
    Don't take challenging questions as an attempt to stifle your own inquisitiveness!

    I often ask questions like "why are you doing this" just so that I can understand the roots of the problem. Or even if there is a problem.
    It is an aspect of my day job. I often have to get to the roots of a problem, as I am often handed half-a$$ed solutions that do not address it.

    And, by all means, bring on the images, please!

    But don't leave out your commentary. It is worthwhile!
  • lkeigwinlkeigwin Posts: 16,885 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sunnywood, your ideas and work are always impressive.

    I love the concept but I can't see it catching on. Just too much data, too confusing. I have no more fingers for decoder rings. (If anything I would like to see common language prevail, instead of code. Like on genuine slabs...sorry to bring that up again!)

    Imagine if different values were assigned to different color? Price lists would be unmanageable.

    Lance.
  • coinsarefuncoinsarefun Posts: 21,663 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm surprised at how easily all of you are either confused, or disinterested in additional information about your coins. By these arguments, you don't need slabs, grades, variety attributions, or any other supplemental information; all you need is an image, or to look at the coin. This wasn't intended as something for TPG's to put on a slab, but rather to help understand the myriad color patterns that occur on toned coins.

    However, I hear the majority, so I won't bother pushing this any further than using it for my own purposes: to better understand the several hundred beautifully toned coins of various types that I own.

    I guess in the future I'll just stick to posting pretty pictures !!

    Sunnywood >>









    I just caught the thread..................don't give up the ship just yetimage
    It is quite a bit of information to process and it takes time on such new idea's

    Personally I find it a bit confusing, but I don't give up easilyimage



    Stefanie
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't let the negative stop you , Sunnywood. I think your attempt at giving the scientific explanation of how and why this toning happens is important.

    I let negative people "re-charge" me. It's why they're here. Accentuate the positive.
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    As you know, I own many toned Morgans. Each one is different. To the untrained eye, the many color patterns may appear random. After a while, one recognizes certain consistent patterns, particularly in the rainbow bands. But the realtionship between them all is still mysterious without a deeper analysis. Further, many coins have colorful toning, but are not "banded rainbow" toners. For example, the blue-green 1892-CC that I posted earlier. How does the color on that coin relate to the color on banded rainbow toners, or the color on a typical peripheral album toner?

    Most people don't even ask these questions, they just look at the coin and think, "it's pretty, I like it" or "not pretty enough, I don't like it." Well that's not enough for me. After studying hundreds of toned silver coins, the relatioship between the colors in the progression became clear, and it became easier to fit a random toned coin into that progression. One begins to understand why the 1892-CC dollar has the colors it does, and is completely different from a banded rainbow toner. To me this is interesting, just as in the past I found other things interesting, such as shield nickel die varieties; Cohen and Sheldon varieties on early coppers; die states and emission sequences; or discovering previously unknown hubs or die marriages.

    If you look at the handful of Morgans I posted in this thread, each has radically different coloration. To me, finding the deeper scheme that connects them all is very interesting. But, to each his own !! If I am the only one who sees a value in categorizing the color schemes, then I shall be the only one who does it. I suggest though, that for those who do look at colorfully toned coins with appreciation, an understanding of the color progression becomes more and more relevant once you realize what it is you are looking at.

    Sunnywood
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Neither confused or disinterested Sunnywood.
    I also love extra info on my coins and do not shy away from it.
    With that said I still believe that this classification is taking it a bit too deep.
    Classifications should be short, sweet and to the point. Enough to grab the interest
    of a layman to pull him in for further detail.
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • JRoccoJRocco Posts: 14,277 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Don't let the negative stop you , Sunnywood. I think your attempt at giving the scientific explanation of how and why this toning happens is important.

    I let negative people "re-charge" me. It's why they're here. Accentuate the positive. >>



    Joe
    This is not the first time you have caused me to break out into song.....
    Some coins are just plain "Interesting"
  • Doug: I too applaud your efforts but find this system much too complex to be of practical use. As one who has had extensive experience in this particular area of numismatic endeavor, I believe that it is more effective to paint a word picture when attempting to describe a toned coin rather than assigning a combination of letters that would be much more confusing than a readily recognizable word or combination of words. Moreover there are many variations of the generic colors you listed that do not neatly fit into a particular category and would be more accurately portrayed by the judicious use of word pictures. JMHO

    Mike
    DE FALCO NUMISMATIC CONSULTING
    Visit Our Website @ www.numisvision.com
    Specializing in DMPL Dollars, MONSTER toners and other Premium Quality U.S. Coins

    *** Visit Mike De Falco's NEW Coin Talk Blog! ***
  • MrSpudMrSpud Posts: 4,498 ✭✭✭
    I think the classification system and determining the commonality of patterns of toning is very important. Entering the data from a whole bunch of toned coins of different dates and denominations into a computer could reveal a pattern of recognition for how usual or unusual a particular toning pattern is in relation to that type and date of coin. This would tell you whether it is common or rare and would also help in determining whether or not it was natural or accelerated.
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    Mikey, nice to see you on here. I guess my strong science background gives me a different perspective on this, but I respect everyone's opinion. To me the classification system is easy, obvious and interesting. I don't really need the codes, because I understand what I'm looking at when I see all the colors, but I find it helpful and enlightening to classify and organize the different patterns. I was also hoping that it would clarify the nature of the toning for those who don't think in terms of Nature's available palette. I will still find it useful, and will apply these classifications to all of my own coins for my own study and benefit.

    Sunnywood
  • SeattleSlammerSeattleSlammer Posts: 9,953 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Sunnywood, I admire your keen interest and knowledge on this subject. I can see why VAMs are so helpful since the details they represent aren't often visible or apparent to the eye of the average collector. But with toned coins, everybody can clearly see the colors. I'm having a hard time grasping a benefit for the average collector to a new classification system...but I do greatly appreciate your efforts to further educate all of us regarding the process behind the colors many of us love.

  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Like I said before Sunnywood, you keep on. I am in support of what you're attempting to verbalize. I sure can't do it, but I can "see it". I think anyone who knows anything about color banding can appreciate how your attempting to document your findings. Scientifically, it's very intriquing and not as complex to understand for me. I think some are trying to absorb information about "codes" and maybe get lost on how you're trying to use the alpha system to move from one color to the next. I can see why that would confuse.... but the banding is not as complex as your "parameters" for explaining them. Anyway, I'm finding it an incredible read. It's quite deep. Someone mentioned not knowing the color chart, but those persons who do, would be the ones who might be the greatest asset to your work. I hope they PM you.

    Respectfully,

    Joe

    P.S.
    Thanks JRocco image
  • robecrobec Posts: 6,577 ✭✭✭✭✭
    It's plain to see that you've done a lot of work and a lot of thinking about toning patterns. What classification would you put on this Buff?

    image
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    robec, I have studied the toning on nickel or copper enough to extend the system to those base metals. There is still a thin film interference phenomenon there, but the progression of colors may be affected by the optical properties of neckel and copper. In particular, copper absorbs blue & green light, which is why it appears reddish-orange. So the color bands on copper should necessarily appear different.

    Although I do not propose using my system for nickel, if I were to apply it here, your coin essentially ranges from medium gold to emerald green on both obverse and reverse, so BR/BR.

    Sunnywood
  • PreussenPreussen Posts: 2,307 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I'm surprised at how easily many of you are either confused, or disinterested in additional information about your coins. >>

    I’m not confused, just extremely disinterested in this convoluted idea. I can hear it now…

    “Does your coin have any colorful toning?”

    “Yes, it’s DD with some JJ/BRD with a hint of GG and JT”

    “Oh; blue-green, huh? Far out, man.”

    JMO -Preussen
    "Illegitimis non carborundum" -General Joseph Stilwell. See my auctions
  • bestclser1bestclser1 Posts: 5,566 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Doug: I too applaud your efforts but find this system much too complex to be of practical use. As one who has had extensive experience in this particular area of numismatic endeavor, I believe that it is more effective to paint a word picture when attempting to describe a toned coin rather than assigning a combination of letters that would be much more confusing than a readily recognizable word or combination of words. Moreover there are many variations of the generic colors you listed that do not neatly fit into a particular category and would be more accurately portrayed by the judicious use of word pictures. JMHO

    Mike >>

    Got to go with Mikey on this one Doug. I teach my selespeople,first rule,KISS,Keep It Simple Stupid.Please read his coin descriptions,and those of Gary at Islandcoins.They come with great pictures and descriptions as well.Also the best selections of monster toned coins,especially Morgans.Albanese as well.JMHOLloydimage
    Great coins are not cheap,and cheap coins are not great!
  • TwoSides2aCoinTwoSides2aCoin Posts: 43,793 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Nurse : Why are you here ?
    Patient : I have this mole or something, growing in my skin. I don't know what it is. It's a different color than my other moles
    Nurse : Let me get the doctor
    Doctor: So, whats the problem ?
    Patient: It's just a mole doc.
    Doctor: Yes, but image we should do further study. It could be cancerous.
    Patient : I don't need your opinion anyway. It doesn't matter what it is.
    Doctor : Thank you, that will be all.
    Patient: Boy, I'm glad my co-pay is only ten bucks. What a waste of insurance.



    Off topic , I heard scientists found a single gene that prevents the re-growth of teeth. Imagine being able to grow new teeth.

    Okay, back to coins, Sunnywood.
  • mozinmozin Posts: 8,755 ✭✭✭
    Sunnywood,

    Thanks for your presentation. In my younger days I would have been able to better follow what you have designed for classifying toned silver coins. Younger eyes would also help. I appreciate your efforts to enlighten CU members.
    I collect Capped Bust series by variety in PCGS AU/MS grades.
  • lcoopielcoopie Posts: 8,690 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I am learning my colors

    Thanks Sunnywood
    LCoopie = Les
  • mgoodm3mgoodm3 Posts: 17,497 ✭✭✭
    The concept is interesting in an academic sense. We have lots of things in medicine that are similar. Too complex for everyday use, but the academics use them for research.

    The biggest problem other than the relative complexity is that it really doesn't tell you how the coin really looks. The colors themselves are only half of the story.
    coinimaging.com/my photography articles Check out the new macro lens testing section
  • I use my own personal numbering system. I know the proper toning color progression but I don't break it down into as many colors as Sunnywood does. I just do a brown=1, light blue=2, light green=3, yellow =4, purple=5, red=6, green=7. deeper red=8, deeper green=9, black=10.

    If you get a purple between 1 and 2, the toning has been sped up and it may result in AT depending. . .

    If the toning is caught between colors, like the 2001 Silver Eagle I am offering on the BST (see my sig line), I give it a decimel. This 2001 Silver Eagle is mainly a green-yellow on the obverse so I'd refer to it as a 3.5 with some tightly banded 4 through 7 rim toning from 10 to 4 o'clock.

    I deal with toned coins for a living so this has become second nature to me. I can easily see how so many can think this to be an overly complicated system, mine or Sunnywood's.
    A lie told often enough becomes the truth. ~Vladimir Lenin
  • SunnywoodSunnywood Posts: 2,683
    Again, the idea was not to replace images. It was also not meant for TPG's or slab inserts. The idea was also not intended for commerical use in selling coins. Dealers whose purpose is to describe coins for sale will certainly prefer verbal descriptions to technical classifications. (KISS or "Keep It Simple Stupid" might be great for salespeople, but not for science or academic research.)

    The idea was to gain an understanding of the toning on coins. I was just trying to create a system to help people understand toning colors, so that they will better appreciate nature's magic on their attractively toned coins. Apparently, it was too complicated for people to like it, even though I think it is very simple !!

    I like to study my coins, not just own them. I have enjoyed many classification systems, including Judd numbers, the Sheldon grading system, die marriage classifications (Sheldon, Overton, and many more), die state classifications (EDS, LDS, etc), die variety attributions (Cherrypicker, VAM, etc), die alignment classifications (e.g. on Gobrechts), error classifications, and on and on. Even the Redbook is a classification system, by denomination, design, date and mintmark. I don't reject them for complexity.

    I will agree with mgoodm, and use this system for academic research. Yes, it only tells half the story - but it does tell that half well, and puts the colors in the proper natural context, based on science, not just subjective aesthetic descriptions.

    OK, this is my last post on this subject !! But when I someday publish my collection in the form of a full-color plated coffee-table book, the classification system will be included nonetheless.

    best,
    Sunnywood

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