1964 sms ownersupdate with pre-lim images warning huge images

lasvegasteddy · December 3, 2008 6:28AM

any of ya want to aide a reasearch project that becoka is to do

i've sent my dime to have microscope surface study made for clarifying just what makes 1964 sms what they are

so...so far all ben will have to work with is a dime

as much as russ did an accented hair kennedy reasearch and we all forever reference off of it

here's a 1964 sms one that is in process and you the other owners may want to make this more then just ben and my dime

then upclose images will clear any doubts if someone wonders if they have one

Coxe · December 3, 2008 6:30AM

I have the cent and the quarter. Won't send it out anywhere, but would be happy to identify die markers and clarify surface characteristics.

BECOKA · December 3, 2008 6:34AM

I'll do what I can, hopefully the slab does not block any views to the markers or characteristics.

lasvegasteddy · December 3, 2008 6:34AM

hey coxe

can you do microscopic work of the fields as maybe this should be a joint venture to produce as i'm thinking

a thread on surface reasearch of them...something like russ's a/h one

BECOKA · December 3, 2008 6:39AM

Does someone have a link to Russ's thread on the Kennedy?

lasvegasteddy · December 3, 2008 6:43AM

here's russ contribute linked
accented hair kennedy defined

lasvegasteddy · December 3, 2008 7:19AM

is the pcgs library archived article and david w. lange one sent to coin world the only known articles so far?

Duane · December 24, 2008 3:50PM

Coxe

I could use your expertise - I found a (I believe) mis-attributed PCGS holdered 1964 SMS. It is formally graded as a PR67RB. Beautiful coin - the entire obverse is a deep yellow gold color, but Lincoln's head is bright red/blue/gold. The golden color has traces of blue lightly toned in spots in the fields. The reverse is concentrically toned, with greenish/grey on the rims fading to a orange red center. Both sides have a magenta ring around the very farthest outside inner rim. The surfaces are clean, but do not mirror like my 1962 proof. I have a 1965 SMS, and the color and surface texture is similar. My first thought was that I had an amazing mis-attributed business strike, but the devices (all) are cameoed. The rims are square, and the surface has a million little what appear to be die strations all across the surface. The surface is covered with these little 'cuts'. Diagnostically, I have found no larger die lines of note - the surface appears perfect, although I can see slight metal flow in spots. This is not a proof, I'm convinced, but I have never seen a business strike this clean and with cameo devices.

What am I looking at?

Duane Blake
duane.blake@comcast.net

segoja · December 24, 2008 11:33PM

Duane,

You pose a good question. A pic would be helpful.

On the SMS 64's (I've sold a complete set) the dime are very striated throughout both side of the coin. The finish looks more like a matte proof that the sms coins of 1965-67. I would not expect any cameo surface given what I've seen on the dimes (I've examned 2 dimes closely) that I've seen.

Not sure what you have, but you would know right away if this coin was a sms coin.

sounds like a cool coin waht ever it is.

NIckelCollector · December 25, 2008 3:04AM

Here is a 1964 SMS Jefferson - surfaces are very different from BU and Proof and more closely resemble 1994 and 1997 SMS.

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Duane · December 25, 2008 4:14AM

Thank you - I was able to compare the 1964 to a 1965 SMS and a 1962 proof. There is not doubt in my mind this 1964 is a SMS. And a very high level one at that.

Listen fellas, I started this string, but have to cut out - I had a back operation 3 week ago, and the wound is now infected, so I am off to the hospital to have it taken care of.

No condolences needed; I just did not people to think I was a jerk.

Take care.
Duane

TexasNationals · December 25, 2008 4:23AM

Coxe

I could use your expertise - I found a (I believe) mis-attributed PCGS holdered 1964 SMS. It is formally graded as a PR67RB. Beautiful coin - the entire obverse is a deep yellow gold color, but Lincoln's head is bright red/blue/gold. The golden color has traces of blue lightly toned in spots in the fields. The reverse is concentrically toned, with greenish/grey on the rims fading to a orange red center. Both sides have a magenta ring around the very farthest outside inner rim. The surfaces are clean, but do not mirror like my 1962 proof. I have a 1965 SMS, and the color and surface texture is similar. My first thought was that I had an amazing mis-attributed business strike, but the devices (all) are cameoed. The rims are square, and the surface has a million little what appear to be die strations all across the surface. The surface is covered with these little 'cuts'. Diagnostically, I have found no larger die lines of note - the surface appears perfect, although I can see slight metal flow in spots. This is not a proof, I'm convinced, but I have never seen a business strike this clean and with cameo devices.

Pictures would help when you get a chance.

lasvegasteddy · December 26, 2008 5:09AM

if anyone is interested there's a 64sms kennedy at superior
1964 sms kennedy

duane,
that's what the beauty is of what becoka is to do...bring close-ups...including microscopic imaging(like 150x close-ups)...to remove doubts when and if they arise as to if someone has one or not

any and all interested too....there's a kennedy offered at stacks linked here

1964 sms kennedy

Bubblehead · December 26, 2008 6:55AM

Stack's??

lasvegasteddy · December 30, 2008 4:40PM

to fellow owners of one...please post your description of one in hand

here's my take

these were proof dies before "final polishing" to produce brilliant...semi finished

so all devices-rims are very square/crisp and sharp

then the mint looks like they drug sand paper across the fields producing "a raised die polish lined field"

then they struck these in a fashion as to not produce much in name of metal flow lines

so upon close inspection they look like a semi-finished proof all crisp and sharp without mirrors with polish lines for the field contrast

lasvegasteddy · January 9, 2009 2:55AM

so an update here with some pre-lim work from ben i thought some may like to peek in on

please note i'm really coming to find my dime to be a dawg in some aspects as i'm still not sure if it is plaqued with milk spots or dip residue

but here are some up close imaging by ben (becoka) that aside from his example he's working with does support his skills and brings those interested in seeing those 1964 sms close up...enjoy these pre-lim's on the dime

my take is it looks like these were proof dies that skipped a final polish for mirrors and then the fields were scuffed with fine grit sand paper to produce "die polish line filled" fields for a new appearance

feel free to comment plus add to any consideration that should be included in a new 1964 sms article that is in it's infancy here

lasvegasteddy · January 9, 2009 2:57AM

so noted this future article is to be an up close surface review theme research presentation to clarify those who may think that they've found a possible example

BECOKA · January 9, 2009 4:02AM

NOTE: this is a PCGS MS67 example so those lines in the photo's are not hairlines

lasvegasteddy · January 9, 2009 6:33AM

<<<NOTE: this is a PCGS MS67 example so those lines in the photo's are not hairlines >>>

yup...those lines are a major part of what made the 1964 sms...a 1964 sms....a cross hatched field appearence

hopefully others chime in and a complete set is reasearched here as your microscopic imaging really rocks ben

i notice on my dime that the back side of "e" in "we" maybe a diagnostic too with the center line of that e "per se" extending past it's straight back

WoodenJefferson · January 9, 2009 8:18AM

This is really very interesting, I have been asking for some time now, how do you tell 1964 SMS coins from business strikes and/or proofs?

Duane · January 17, 2009 5:25AM

Ted-

I'm out of the hospital, and home getting well.

Just started to look at this string again. Ben's photos are very good. I cannot get that level of magnification from my loupe, but am going to submit the 1964 Lincoln Cent to the PCGS experts for a new attribution.

The 1964 I have has the same surface texture as a certified 1965 SMS I also own, and when compared to the 1962 and 1963 proof Lincolns in my collection, the '64 is much, much different. If the '64 is a proof, and not SMS, it has the strangest proof characteristics that I've seen!

When I get the Tru-View back, I will share with all, regardless of the designation.

BTW - I noticed that Lincoln Cents are not being specifically discussed in this thread. Does anyone have enlarged photos of an authentic 1964 SMS Lincoln? --Maybe the surfaces look different in the copper then the silver??

Thank you.

Duane

cladking · January 17, 2009 7:43AM

That's very interesting.

One has to suspect they were struck twice or very very slowly.

Duane · January 17, 2009 8:25AM

That's what I was thinking, as well. The detail is very good, as if the coin was struck multiple times. Now that I'm starting to look at PCGS Tru-Views of the '64 and '65 SMS Lincolns, the surface looks like mine. I may have stumbled across a very scarce coin. We'll see what PCGS has to say....

Attached below is a '65 SMS Lincoln owned by fellow collector Mark O'Connor. The '64 seems to have the same surface as this '65, with what I would describe as a 'radiating aura' comprising many many little 'scratches' in the coin's surface - would really like to know more about how the coins were prepared.

lasvegasteddy · January 17, 2009 8:36AM

hey duane,
ben truly is doing all he can with this and in sincerest of hopes too...other denom owners can bring forth microscopic level images for this project

asnovell · August 15, 2011 3:36AM

Hello, I have an 1964 Lincoln cent that has a Matte finish. Did all of the Proof Lincoln cents in the 60's have the mirrored typical proof finish? Thanks in advance!

cladking · August 15, 2011 7:31AM

<< <i>Hello, I have an 1964 Lincoln cent that has a Matte finish. Did all of the Proof Lincoln cents in the 60's have the mirrored typical proof finish? Thanks in advance! >>

They aimed for brilliant finish but there is some variation on the regular proofs.

I've never seen one thatlooks much like matte finish though.

1964 sms ownersupdate with pre-lim images warning huge images

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1964 sms owners***update with pre-lim images*** warning huge images

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1964 sms ownersupdate with pre-lim images warning huge images