Professional quality digital photography at major shows...would it work??

coppercoins · July 19, 2006 3:05PM

With a special contraption I have developed, my digital camera, my laptop, and a quantity of CD-ROMs I am prepared to be able to attend any show and offer the service of photographing coins on the spot, editing the photos for print or internet publication, and handing the finished files to the owner of the coin on a while-you-wait basis. Because my contraption is basically light-sealed, I can photograph anything, anywhere, and get very good results.

Questions are:

1. Would this be popular if I took the equipment in the show with me, prepared a nice little portfolio of photos, and presented it to dealers on the spot?
2. Is this something that is allowed by bourse rules, or is it a taboo issue?
3. Has anyone heard of anyone trying this before?
4. So if it's likely popular and isn't against the rules, what's it worth? What would it be worth to you to have images of a nice coin you bought at the show and wanted to run on eBay that night (or some similar crunch-time issue)?

stephunter · July 19, 2006 3:09PM

If its allowed I think it would work great.

UncleWiggly · July 19, 2006 3:09PM

Please tell me when you plan to do this. I want to be the first in line. YES! Also, if you're in it just for the money...and there ain't nothing wrong with that...you may also consider setting up at the major stamp shows. Stamps are zooooooooooming. And I mean really zooming. I kid nobody about this!!!!

Jerry

Julio · July 19, 2006 3:20PM

I would give it a shot. Have no clue as to rules/regulations. I wont do it as I refuse to travel. Provide a quality product at a reasonable price and you will be a winner. Just make sure you figure your cost, then add 80%. My experience is that you can always lower your prices if you erred in that direction. Raising prices is problematic. jws

coppercoins · July 19, 2006 3:21PM

I intend on carrying it to Denver with me to see if it works out...that plus I have some work I have to do for a client while there that was already planned. Since I'm going to have all the stuff there already, I'll probably give it a shot.

Just wondering, what do you think about pricing? I do intend on giving a quantity discount, but what level should it start at? The receiver gets a 2000x1000 image at 300DPI for printing, and gets a 800x400 image at 72DPI for web publishing of each coin. The images will be side-by-side obverse/reverse images, and will be archived by serial number in my system for later retrieval, should this be necessary...in other words I will have a back-up in case they lose theirs.

coppercoins · July 19, 2006 3:21PM

<< My experience is that you can always lower your prices if you erred in that direction. Raising prices is problematic. jws >>

Advice much appreciated...never thought of it that way. Thank you!

Bruceswar · July 19, 2006 3:45PM

I like the idea of this. This could be very handy for alot of reasons. I am sure the workload would pile on fast. Hired help and extra camera's may be needed.

bestclser1 · July 19, 2006 4:10PM

You can do my Morgans and the photo critics and critiques would be very surprised.You are hired.

Bochiman · July 19, 2006 4:16PM

Locally, I saw someone try this at the local "major" shows spottily.
He wasn't busy and I haven't seen him for about a year now.

Good luck with it but after the first rush of people, there may not be many more.....could depend on the photos and the cost though.

Julio · July 19, 2006 4:21PM

You can do my Morgans and the photo critics and critiques would be very surprised.You are hired.

There is no way you can not like this. He is giving a new business a break and putting his money and rep. where his mouth is. Sir; I admire you. jws

MrEureka · July 19, 2006 4:28PM

How much for single photos?

How much for a 200 photo a year contract?

coppercoins · July 19, 2006 4:43PM

<< How much for single photos?

How much for a 200 photo a year contract? >>

I'm still trying to figure the pricing - would $10 per coin overnight, $25 while you wait (10 minutes) be too much to ask? Too cheap?

Price would include a CD-ROM with two different image qualities per coin - one for printing, and one for the web.

I haven't even begun to think about contract work yet.

bestclser1 · July 19, 2006 4:48PM

Will you come to Las Vegas?

coppercoins · July 19, 2006 4:50PM

<< Will you come to Las Vegas?

>>

If things work out in Denver...very possibly. If it generates enough money I'll end up at the top ten shows each year. Gotta pay the bills here and the travel expenses...then I'll be happy.

p8nt · July 19, 2006 4:54PM

How does your technique work on toned coins?

coppercoins · July 19, 2006 4:59PM

<< How does your technique work on toned coins? >>

coppercoins · July 19, 2006 5:11PM

Just took this one, edited it, and uploaded it...about ten minutes.

relayer · July 19, 2006 5:33PM

<< 

<< How does your technique work on toned coins? >>

>>

relayer · July 19, 2006 5:37PM

Back when TonedPeaceNut was FrattLaw he put a photo set-up in his hotel room at Long Beach and charged $10 a picture (I think)

I don't think he ever did it again though, so I guess instead of

it was more

ms70 · July 19, 2006 8:54PM

I'd bring my coins to a show for great pics.

sinin1 · July 19, 2006 9:15PM

I think if you rented a booth, the organizers would not have a problem

I am not sure on liability insurance would be, especially if you kept coins overnight

I think you would want to do all coins while owner waited - and give them right back

You might want to consider printing photo's as well as digital format
(as some well healed older collectors are not computer savy but are coin savy)

do you get similar results with raw and slabbed?

I think your $10/$25 fee structure may be high - not sure on time involved

Barndog · July 19, 2006 9:34PM

volume should be one of your goals, so ten minutes per coin while I wait would be too long for me and too long for you. If you can get that down to a couple minutes, you can achieve some level of profitable volume. As for cost, if you ask $25/coin while I wait and I'm an average collector, I'll wait until after the show and go shoot a low-quality photo myself at home. Average collectors can't see having 30% of the price of the coin spent on a photo of the coin. At $25 a pop, you won't see the photos used to sell average coins on ebay -- since the photo won't help bring in an extra $25. If your target is higher-end coins, chances are your potential customer base will be too low for you to be profitable. Higher end collectors likely have the means (self, dealer, or other) available to get nice photos of their coins already. So I think speed of service needs to be "unreasonably fast" for success at a show and prices need to be "no brainers" for the average Joe.

beartracks42 · July 19, 2006 9:48PM

I think that if you are price competive with what is out there now(PCGS and NGC have photo service), and can deliver in one day, you have a good shot at this. I also like the thought of only having to bring my coins to you and not shipping them all over the country to get them photo'ed. One important fact that is in your favor is the great majority of collectors like me, that can't take a nice picture of their coins.

MrEureka · July 19, 2006 10:06PM

would $10 per coin overnight, $25 while you wait (10 minutes) be too much to ask?

$10-15 should work for single coin deals. I don't think you should charge a premium for "while you wait" service. Let them wait in line if they don't want to leave you alone with the coin.

The bulk of the business, however, will be with dealers doing larger groups of coins. You'll need discounts for 5 or more coins, bigger discounts for larger groups, and even bigger discounts for contract deals. Most of your business will probably come from dealers giving you 10-50 coins at every show. The key for getting much of this business will be a turnaround time of less than one hour. You might consider hiring a runner to pick up and deliver coins while you're busy shooting.

ABC123 · July 19, 2006 10:37PM

Super concept---set up your own table and charge accordingly. Much Good Luck with this business idea! Sign me up !

dizzyfoxx · July 19, 2006 10:52PM

<< You can do my Morgans and the photo critics and critiques would be very surprised.You are hired.

>>

Longacre · July 19, 2006 11:08PM

Great idea. I think less than $10 per coin would open the possibility of getting lower priced coins to be photographed too.

MrBreeze · July 19, 2006 11:49PM

I certainly like the idea. I agree with a lot of Barndog's comments. I think you would have to do a little more "fast food" type service. If you charge $25, I would have to weigh my options versus having PCGS do it. But, I don't know that I would be your target audience. I would think you would want a minimum submission number to save time, as several pictures would go to the same CD, file, etc.

coinguy1 · July 19, 2006 11:58PM

Chuck, you could probably do quite a bit of dealer business just PRIOR to the shows, too.

It's already been mentioned, but if coins are going to be left with you, proper insurance coverage is extremely important, as is making sure that any potential "runner" or assistant is trustworthy, competent and conscientious.

Longacre · July 20, 2006 12:01AM

I think it is a great idea, but should you target dealers and their inventory items? Some dealers' websites have horrible pictures, so maybe another business model is to contract with them as their primary coin photographer. At a show, I am not sure how many dealers would want pictures of their coins. Dealers are looking for quick flips and sales at a show, and once a coin is sold, it is probably forgotten about.

jayboxx · July 20, 2006 12:02AM

Mark might be your number one customer..although his pics are improving

mgoodm3 · July 20, 2006 12:58AM

hope it works out for you. Would be good gig. I don't think that i could do significant volume/time like you'll need to do at a show. I fuss over the details too much. Seems like the one problem that I run into that really slows me down are the beat up slabs, can really interfere with a good picture.

coppercoins · July 20, 2006 12:58AM

I need to straighten up a factoid or two.

I NEVER wanted the coins to be left with me. That part is ALWAYS while you wait. I can shoot a coin in less than a minute, roughly 75 coins per hour. It's the editing that takes time (6-8 minutes per coin), and that's the part that I would do at night and have a CD ready the next day. The extra charge would be for people who wanted the CD when they handed me the coin. For the extra money I would photo, edit, and produce output while they wait, and there's no way to drag that down lower than about ten minutes.

I could also run a cheaper service where I photo the coins in person, then take the images home, edit them, and send them in the mail. Again, I would not be taking or transporting any coins. In fact, the whole glory to doing this is that the whole kit is so portable I can do the photography at a dealer's table so they are never out of posession of the coins. I had planned on eventually doing this at a table of my own, but it's too late for Denver. That might come at Baltimore in December if I can get a table.

I'll be using www.numisphoto.com in the future to outline a list of shows I will be attending, but right now all I generally attend are the two ANA shows, a Baltimore show a year, the Houston money show, and most of the shows in all the states neighboring Missouri that have 50 tables or more.

So...three tiers of service...

1. Immediate service. You walk up with coins, I photograph them, give the coins and output (CD) back to you before you walk away....starts at $25 per coin and goes down with quantity.

2. Overnight service. You walk up with the coins, I photo the coins and hand them back to you, then you pick up your CD the next day....starts at $15 per coin and goes down with quantity.

3. Mail back service. You walk up with your coins, I photo them and give them back to you, then I mail your CD back to you after the show is over....starts at $10 per coin and goes down with quantity.

Time is money, and the more I can photograph while the show is going on the better. If I'm going to spend show time to edit your images and burn the CD there on the spot, I'm charging extra for it. If you let me edit the images while the show isn't in-session, then the charge is less. I can see where that's completely logical...but again, you ALWAYS walk away with your coins in hand, regardless of the service you choose. It's the amount of time the finished output takes that determines the price.

So, now that I have explained the whole thing better, what do you think? Priced right? What am I missing? Anything?

JrGMan2004 · July 20, 2006 1:09AM

I know this has been talked about a number of times here... lots to factor in, #1 I think is over coming the cost of your table. If you could convince a dealer friend to let you have a small space on his front table, and split some of his cost, you might do better, and then use his back table for your work, but you might not have as much visbility to the people... #2, controlled environment... with the over head lighting, i think you would need to come up with some sort of box contraption to enclose your work area... maybe a PVC pipe frame with black cloth? Even if it was three sides and the top, and you stand in the open side, that could work, but it would need to be big enough for you to completely fit your set-up inside and manipulate your lights...

With quality, service, and price it could be a good venture, but it could flop miserably if people don't take you seriously, and if they don't have a need for your services... but even with the emergence of TrueView, you may still do well by giving the instant service of on-site photographing... would be interesting to see who uses the service more, collectors or dealers...

As for me, I plan to bring my photo equipment to Denver ANA (Will be shipping it to a friend's in-laws ahead of time) so I will have it in the hotel room. JRCS likes to do informal meetings in the evening which end up being show and tells... I'm thinking I will likely offer my photo services for anyone that wants pictures... I'm thinking I might charge something like $1/per coin and donate it to the YNA or similar organization...

johnsim03 · July 20, 2006 1:25AM

Chuck:

I think this is an interesting idea, and, with the price structure you are considering, would
be attractive to a lot of folks.

The only possible negative I can see is that if you got a lot of business (it became popular),
you would probably see a "eBay effect." By that, I mean, others would start doing the same
thing, cutting the prices, wanting a piece of the action.

So I suppose quality of the service would be the most important consideration, at least for me.
Otherwise, competition would do its thing and you would have 10 other guys wanting to do the
same thing, cheaper. Of course, if you could work out an "exclusive" arrangement with the
organizers, that would not be a problem.

John

Connecticoin · July 20, 2006 1:28AM

If the quality of pictures is consistently as high as the ones you posted, the service most likely will sell itself and you may get swamped!!

19Lyds · July 20, 2006 1:36AM

I'm trhinking your going to be very very busy Chuck! 10 minutes per coin, add another 5 or so for taking the order and another couple for those that don;t know what they want to do, you might want to consider having a helper assist while you photograph. I will for sure bring my prize toners to Denver and just pray that there won't be to long of a line!

Personally, if its allowed, I think you have an absolutely winning idea here and other may just follow suit. Photography at major racing events is a given and there is always a wait! I suspect that you wil have more work than you know what to do with!

By the way, when you get it established, be sure to post your table number or location.

carl · July 20, 2006 1:47AM

all kind of sounds like a good idea. I wouldn't worry about compitition though. I go to a lot of coin shows and don't see to many collectors carrying anything bigger than their wallets. Some other dealers may try to do the same but I suspect only if they hear your getting rich doing this. However, the only customers would be the ones with expensive coins that for some reason require a photograph. The largest amount of people would probably not be interested for to large an amount of money per photo.
You could also consider emailing people their photos cutting down expenses by no CD or postage. You could also consider bringing a small printer with if someone just wants a print and not interested in an electronic copy. Then there is always the 3 1/2" floppy which are practically being given away nowadays which you could put the photos on for a cheap price. Why use a CD for something where not required? As to legality, I can't see any reason a coin show would not accept this situation. At gun shows there are people taking pictures for your FOID card required here in Illinois. At camera shows there are people taking pictures of everything. I think at car shows it is considered a necessity to take photos.
Try to find a way to drop the price for a fast photo emailed or an instant print to intise the average person.
By the way just bought your second edition of your book. Hope it is worth it.

coppercoins · July 20, 2006 2:20AM

CD output would be required for two reasons...first, the larger format image I would provide wouldn't fit on a 3.5 floppy, and second, most computers don't even have a floppy drive any more, my laptop included.

Quality is a must, and would be a paramount part of the business. Knock-off folks would be just that, and the quality would speak for itself.

If I get swamped to a point where I can't take more work, I simply won't. The first show is going to be a trial and error for the amount of work I can handle. I can handle sitting in a hotel room all evening editing photos if it means feeding my son and paying the house note.

Postage and CDs are VERY cheap. I can send a CD in the mail for a total cost of less than a dollar.

RWB · July 20, 2006 3:05AM

I did this at large shows several decades ago. The primary problem was there weren't enough collectors and dealers interested to make the operation pay – even with free table space. I typically had 30-40 customers per 3-day show.

Maybe by using digital technology and onsite, while-you-wait image return (as is done with kids’ gymnastics and sporting events) it could be profitable. One constraint is that many collectors own digital cameras and take acceptable coin photos, so you need an incentive for them to purchase.

I have seen this at several local (Eastern US) shows, also.

Russ · July 20, 2006 3:09AM

<< Locally, I saw someone try this at the local "major" shows spottily.
He wasn't busy and I haven't seen him for about a year now. >>

Ron,

I know who you're talking about. He never got much in the way of business, so he gave up. Of course, with the crap material at the shows around here I'm not surprised.

Russ, NCNE

DorkGirl · July 20, 2006 8:52AM

I'm pretty sure that the Pug (Frank) tried to do this at a couple of shows, but gave up because of the lack of response.

Professional quality digital photography at major shows...would it work??

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