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"In-home Safes vs Safety Deposit Boxes"


How about some of your thoughts and dialogue on the topic of having an In home Safe versus Safety Deposit box in which to house all of our coins. One of the draw-backs I realize with Safety Deposit Boxes, is the fact that I have to trek down to the bank every time I want to take my coins home to view or update collection or just to enjoy, etc.

As we build our collections it obviously becomes apparent that hiding our collections in the house isn't smart and is unsettling at best. We soon realize that we have to make the decision whether to go down to the local bank and get a box, obviously big enough or do we shop around for an In home safe. Do we go fireproof safe or burglary safe or combination? Do we want in ground? In the wall? Safe bolted to the floor?

What are your thoughts? Have you invested in a safe at home? What make? Features?, etc.
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Comments

  • 4 feet wide..........
    2 1/2 feet deep..........
    6 ft tall ..............
    4 inch concrete filled steel plate walls and doors..........

    The absolute SMALLEST I would consider !!!!!!!!!!

    If you don't have to re-inforce something to hold up your safe, IT'S TOO SMALL !!!!!!!!!!!
    Cam-Slam 2-6-04
    3 "DAMMIT BOYS"
    4 "YOU SUCKS"
    Numerous POTD (But NONE officially recognized)
    Seated Halves are my specialty !
    Seated Half set by date/mm COMPLETE !
    Seated Half set by WB# - 289 down / 31 to go !!!!!
    (1) "Smoebody smack him" from CornCobWipe !
    IN MEMORY OF THE CUOF image

  • Coins that are safe-deposit worthy stay there.

    My Statehood Quarter Registry set gets to stay home
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    My posts viewed image times
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  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    TL-15 or 30 rated safe, insurance, alarm, gun, be aware and you're as set as you can be other than a safe deposit box.

    However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that.

    How that will affect insurance on coins somewhere down the road is unknown. But it's certainly worth asking the question to the insurance person which I've done but she's now on vacation.

    Rgrds
    Tom
    image
  • coinbufcoinbuf Posts: 10,713 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I keep all my important coins at the bank. I have a few inexpensive ones at home but can look at all my coins anytime. I take digital pics and store those on my computer, so in a way I have my complete collection at home without the risk.

    Chris
    My Lincoln Registry
    My Collection of Old Holders

    Never a slave to one plastic brand will I ever be.
  • However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that

    this has to do with recent (since 9/11) changes to money laundering laws under the Patriot Act.
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭


    << <i>However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that

    this has to do with recent (since 9/11) changes to money laundering laws under the Patriot Act. >>






    Thanks for the info.

    Well then I guess I'm not a "patriot". Great direction this place is heading. Jeesh.

    Tomimage

  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295


    << <i>However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that. >>



    Sounds like another wacky FL law. I'm getting very tired of Florida law and am about to make certain people there deal with Virginia law.
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that. >>



    Sounds like another wacky FL law. I'm getting very tired of Florida law and am about to make certain people there deal with Virginia law. >>





    Personally I like Virginia. Nowhere near where I'm at with Fla but I like it. And I tire of people who say negative things about this great place and wish that the deadbeats from elsewhere would avoid our great state and keep on heading into the ocean or stay where they are. There's a lot of them down here right now trying to take advantage of mostly old people who are desperate from the hurricanes, especially Charlie and Ivan.

    It's not a "wacky FL law". It's federal. And those guys from Virginia from long ago would now be considered "extremists" in a best case and terrorists in a real case scenario according to where we're at today.

    However, with regards to what you're referring too, I hope you're successful with that.

    Tomimage
  • I am considering a small to medium fire resistant safe. I read an article once about how often banks drill deposit boxes at the request of police or other government agencies and I don't feel secure leaving anything in a bank vault knowing that it could be accessed or even confiscated on a whim.
    image
    image
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I am considering a small to medium fire resistant safe. I read an article once about how often banks drill deposit boxes at the request of police or other government agencies and I don't feel secure leaving anything in a bank vault knowing that it could be accessed or even confiscated on a whim. >>





    Sliderider, a small "fire resistant" safe can simply be carried out. Might as well hide the "stuff" in other places.

    You might want to check with your postal clerk as to up coming sales of USPS safes. They just had one in Tampa a few months ago and a few which would be small enough for home use and appeared to be burglar resistant quality went for a couple hundred bucks each. ( + cost to move and ship)

    Tom

  • The first time the buglars rob your house, your safe will protect your coins.

    The only problem now, is a felon knows you have a safe in your house, so he comes back when you are home with a gun.

    image
    My posts viewed image times
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  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    so he comes back when you are home with a gun.

    if he comes back when I'm home with a gun, he's gonna be hurtin'

    image

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • I thought I would solve this problem, so I decided on both. Well, it didn't work for me. I keep changing my mind on which ones I want where. Now, it's back and forth from the bank more than when I just had a safety deposit box.

    I'm afraid to ask at my bank about keeping money in a safety deposit box. I might put them in a ackward position.

    Jerry
  • BaleyBaley Posts: 22,658 ✭✭✭✭✭
    it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank.

    I'm pretty sure that a law-abiding citizen with a coin collection will not be prosecuted for storing the "money" in a safe deposit box.

    I feel confident that this "law" refers to packs of cash of questionable origin,
    stored by people with questionable backgrounds and/or intent.

    BTW, all the "good stuff" is in a bank box.

    Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry

  • HigashiyamaHigashiyama Posts: 2,139 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Can anyone actually cite a law prohibiting cash in a safe deposit box?

    I do not believe that any such law exists. (at least no Federal law)
    Higashiyama


  • << <i>Can anyone actually cite a law prohibiting cash in a safe deposit box?

    I do not believe that any such law exists. (at least no Federal law) >>



    Thats because your correct, there is none, Federal or State or otherwise. I'd be looking for a different bank if the manager told me that bag of beans tale, she's clueless. I worked for a major bank for 24 years, and I can tell you this law does not exist, and has nothing to do with the Patriot Act either. However, of more importance, is the fact that your contents are NOT insured by the bank. So if you suffer a loss, your on your own unless your homeowners policy had a rider covering safe deposit box contents.
  • These Protect my Collection when I am home, I need a dog or something when I am gone image

    Sorry for stock images, I do not have pictures of one and I am waiting for Background check for other:

    image

    image
    Sets Complete:
    Eisenhower Dollar, BU

    Set Incomplete:
    Roosevelt Dime
    1900 - Current Type, No Gold
    Silver Eagle
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    A safety deposit box is far more secure than a safe. It is especially effective if everyone
    who knows you collect coins also knows you keep them in safety deposit boxes. Safes
    are only effective for small collections and only if people don't know they're there. As has
    been pointed out, they can become a liability if they are discovered in a burglary.

    While the greatest problem with an in home safe is the attention they might attract, they
    also are much easier to rob than a bank. The bank has layers of security and can not open
    the boxes even if the security all fails. Large collections should be kept in safety deposit
    boxes. Collectors can always keep minor collections in the home.
    Tempus fugit.
  • VeepVeep Posts: 1,400 ✭✭✭✭
    Good stuff lives at the bank almost all of the time. I use a small safe if coins are temporarily at home or in a holding pattern until I can get new purchases to the bank.
    "Let me tell ya Bud, you can buy junk anytime!"
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭
    I'm at the point, too, where I have enough stuff to get a box -- just started looking into it a few days ago. I do have a small safe at home (as well hidden and covered by worthless stuff as I could make it), so I'll probably eventually take a little of my collection home, enjoy it for a while, then go back, put those coins back in the box and "visit" a few others for a while.
  • We STRONGLY discourage customers from keeping their valuable coins in ANY home safe. Its not a question of how well-hidden or the TL rating of the safe itself, but the possibility of a robber forcing you or another family member to open the safe for them under threat of "bodily harm".

    Further, we encourage collectors (who have sizeable numismatic holdings) to obtain insurance. Its not very expensive if you're asking for coverage on items stored in a major bank's safety deposit box or in home safes with a high TL rating and security alarms. There are a number of insurance companies that specialize in insuring both dealers and collectors. Although I cannot endorse one over the other, the three biggest and most reputable that I'm aware of are (in no particular order):

    North American Collectibles Society (1-800-685-6746)
    H.W. Wood, Ltd. (London Office E-Mail: london@hwint.com)
    Cleland & Associates (1-800-827-0192)

    Finally, the notion that storing "money" in a bank's safe box is illegal is not correct (and downright silly). However, I'm fairly certain that possessing "ill-gotten or undeclared money" (either on your person or in your personal storage) IS illegal.
    Todd L. Imhof
    Partner / Executive VP
    Heritage Auctions
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    A burglar in my house will get his choice of the following:

    image
    image
    image
    image
  • Technically, a safe deposit box is probably the most secure.
    A home safe should be for those valuable documents, papers and jewelry and such.
    I'd only store your valuable coins in the home safe until you can get them to the safe deposit box.
    Home invasions is now more common, extremely dangerous, the criminals will likely kill people whether
    they hand over stuff or not, either way.
    Unfortunately, the best defense is that no one knows you have these things to steal.
    Having firearms around requires a tremendous amount of responsibility on your part as well. Thieves target firearms and
    are likely to want them more than the coins.
    But in all fairness big dogs work great, especially when they do not like to be woke up by strangers in the house.image
    I found this photo someplace and having these guys staring you in the face after climbing in through a window, wanting to know what your doing, ought to be a excellent nightmare.
    image
    image
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    Finally, the notion that storing "money" in a bank's safe box is illegal is not correct (and downright silly).




    Rather than render an opinion based on nothing more than what you think, make the call. Ask the question.

    Get the facts. I'm telling you what I was told by 2 bank employees including the VP of the bank. The VP however use the word "technically speaking".

    Now if "technically speaking" she is correct, then doesn't that make the "out" for an insurance company a possibility? I would think it does "technically speaking".


    Tom

  • Tom,

    I'm not sure I understand your question(s) -- but I stand by my "non-legally binding" opinion. Perhaps someone would like to contact the FBI or IRS for clarification . . . just not me! image

    Edited to Add: I just spoke with two of our bankers who said they were NOT aware of any such law that makes it illegal to store legal tender (per se) in safe boxes.
    Todd L. Imhof
    Partner / Executive VP
    Heritage Auctions
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Tom,

    I'm not sure I understand your question(s) -- but I stand by my "non-legally binding" opinion. Perhaps someone would like to contact the FBI or IRS for clarification . . . just not me! image >>





    No I said "The question". You don't need to call the FBI. Call your bank and ask them if it's ok to store rare coins in a safe deposit box. What might really be interesting is to get several different answers from several different banks. ( Ha!)

    It's bizarre I know, but it is what it is.

    It's for "freedom" and "safety" don't you know. ( that's my sarcastic take on it)

    Tom
  • i once read something--- if there's one thing burglars have no interest in, it's reading. So they leave your books alone!
    Maybe disguise your coin collection as a book on a crowded bookshelf!
  • I did. See my edited reply above. Although they also pointed out as a reminder that the bank does not "insure" the contents of their customer's safe boxes and it clearly states on the rental agreement that that they are not liable, etc. Its up to the customer to obtain his/her own insurance that covers items stored in their bank.
    Todd L. Imhof
    Partner / Executive VP
    Heritage Auctions
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    I wasn't talking about insurance from a bank Todd. I have my insurance thru Barb Wingo. I'm stating that if a bank can make the claim that it is "technically" against the law to store money/coins in a safe deposit box ( which they did) then doesn't that in fact open a door to an insurance company denying a claim if something were to happen as far fetched as that may be.

    If we were talking nickels and dimes ( hahaha) I would pay it no mind.

    But I'm not obviously talking about just nickels and dimes. And as such, I've sent Barb an email with my bankers name and phone number for clarification and something in writing.

    Tom
  • coachleonard,

    You're probably correct about a burgler not searching a bookshelf. However, a fire might find your bookshelf quite appealing.image
    Todd L. Imhof
    Partner / Executive VP
    Heritage Auctions
  • ziggy29ziggy29 Posts: 18,668 ✭✭✭


    << <i>You're probably correct about burgler not searching a bookshelf. However, a fire might find your bookshelf quite appealing.image >>

    Could be a marketing opportunity: A huge reinforced cardboard-looking box, large enough to enclose a small safe, that you can write the work "BOOKS" on the outside of with a magic marker. A huge box of books would weigh about what a safe weighs, anyway... image
  • Robbers might not read, but they do know all the tricks for hiding valubles. Looking in books is one of them.. A hidden floor safe might help. I have a small safe and I anchored my safe in my closet with cement.


    Jerry

  • Just park a '75 Ford in the driveway, and don't worry about anything else! You won't even have to feed and water it like with dogs.


    By the way, how did the Safe Boxes fare during the recent hurricanes? If the bank gets blown away, do the boxes live?





  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    By the way, how did the Safe Boxes fare during the recent hurricanes? If the bank gets blown away, do the boxes live? >>




    They are ok but the bank is destoyed. What's left of it is a sort of temporary "mud room". You have to knock on the door and be greeted by an armed police officer who opens it. Once inside the room, there's 2 girls sitting at a folding table with calculators and that is it.

    Tom

  • Glad they're OK image

  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    Thanks! The problem of course is "access". You have to make an appointment a day or two in advance and wait. Then an armed police will escort you in.

    No privacy.


    Tomimage
  • cladkingcladking Posts: 28,305 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Most of the vaults will withstand a direct hit by a tornado. A hurricane certainly shouldn't hurt them.

    The biggest dangers with a box are flooding and having access to the box in the event of a disruption
    to the bank.
    Tempus fugit.


  • << <i>

    << <i>I am considering a small to medium fire resistant safe. I read an article once about how often banks drill deposit boxes at the request of police or other government agencies and I don't feel secure leaving anything in a bank vault knowing that it could be accessed or even confiscated on a whim. >>





    Sliderider, a small "fire resistant" safe can simply be carried out. Might as well hide the "stuff" in other places.

    You might want to check with your postal clerk as to up coming sales of USPS safes. They just had one in Tampa a few months ago and a few which would be small enough for home use and appeared to be burglar resistant quality went for a couple hundred bucks each. ( + cost to move and ship)

    Tom >>



    It may not be 100% effective against burglars, but it will provide some protection in case my house burns down. And a safe that's small enough can be hidden or placed in an inconvenient location. I doubt a burglar is going to take the time to search your attic or crawlspace. I will check with the post office, though, for their surplus sales and see what they have. Thanks for the tip.
    image
    image
  • <<However, it is against the "law" to store "money" in a safe deposit box. That's the word from the bank. I couldn't believe my ears on this one but it's from the VP of the bank. I don't know if this is something new or what, but imagine my surprise when she told me that.>>


    Actually, the law COULD be applied to rare coins as well. Technically they are still considered money, and a drug dealer or other criminal could securely launder their dirty money by buying rare coins, hiding them in a safe deposit box under another name and reselling them years later. It's a lot easier to store a rare, slabbed double eagle than it is to store the bundles of cash it takes to buy it.
    image
    image
  • mirabelamirabela Posts: 4,954 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I, too, doubt that a burglar is going to search your attic or your crawlspace -- but an armed home invader could very well expect you to go get the goods. I don't know about for the coins, but it's safest for the PEOPLE, imo, that the coins live at the bank.
    mirabela
  • OK. One of our bankers just sent me a published article on the topic of "legal tender" in safe boxes. It is hardly an absolute / definitive answer but at least it comes from an authoritative source.

    SAFE BOX REGULATION

    Also . . .

    It may not be 100% effective against burglars, but it will provide some protection in case my house burns down. And a safe that's small enough can be hidden or placed in an inconvenient location. I doubt a burglar is going to take the time to search your attic or crawlspace.

    Sliderider,
    You may well be correct that a burglar will not spend much time searching in obscure areas of your home for a safe. However, most of the tragic stories I've read that involve home safes is that it was some casual public statement by the collector or perhaps his young child who brags on the schoolyard that "Daddy has cool old coin collection he keeps in a safe buried in the floor . . . " that tips off the opportunistic criminal.

    As Bob Bruggerman (Executive Director of the PNG) once told me; its not the criminal who tries to break into your safe while you out of the office/home that you need to worry about. Its the criminal armed with a weapon and with the tip that you own something very valuable . . . in a private safe . . . on your premises . . . and you ARE going to open it for him.

    I apologize if all this sounds a little too melodramatic. But I really want to emphasize my recommendation to keep your coins off your premises in a secured location.
    Todd L. Imhof
    Partner / Executive VP
    Heritage Auctions
  • Interesting article.
    Another "Urban Myth" has been dispelled.I would think that someone hiding a huge
    amount of cash anyplace would obviously besome kind of a criminal or breaking
    the law on something because normal people would have all that money put someplace earning a return.

    The only exception I know of is that guy who won the lottery over in Kentucky( or was it West Virginia?)
    who went into a strip joint with a briecase with something like $250,000 cash in it and was showing it to everyone.
    Yup somebody robbed him too.
    Then I guess there was that $1,000,000 display that used to be up in a casino in Las Vegas for many years.
    Yeah right, try and spend a $1,000 bill anywhere. It would have been very interesting to read about some fool trying to do just that though.
    image
  • Interesting thread

    I did a "back of the envelope" calculation when my collection got big enough to think about this question and the safety deposit box option was cheaper than buying a safe and adding to my insurance. Depends on the size of box you need though.

    Dr J
  • ormandhormandh Posts: 3,111 ✭✭✭
    The one thing that you have to worry about in some banks, is the way they climatize the safe deposit boxes. There is humidity in some of them to keep papers and important documents from drying out.
  • I keep the prime stuff in the Safe deposit box. The stuff in transit, buying, selling or just enjoying goes into a floor safe which I will open if my family is threatened. It is adequate protection if the house is empty. I also have have a PCGS "bluff box" with a few slabbed Kennedys , Morgans and a few foreign gold coins that they can grab and run if they find it.



    BTW don't be surprised about the govenments ability to slip in laws as "anti terrorist" laws that are really to control our ability to hide from taxes. Some day they will put expiration dates on the money as well. And they still have the "rainbow money" ready for change out, and you better be able to explain any major cash reserves.
  • As for the Patriot Act forbidding money/cash being held in saftey deposit boxes the answer really is yes and no.

    Section 351 of the new Act provides specific directives to banks and financial institutions, requiring the implementation of anti-money laundering programs. These include development of internal polices, procedures, and controls, the designation of a compliance officer, the requirement of an on-going employee training program, and an independent audit function to test programs. The mandatory reporting of suspicious or large cash transactions (previously reported only to the Treasury Department) has been expanded to require reporting to law enforcement. Financial institutions are prohibited from disclosing to anyone whether or not reporting has occurred. Unless there is malice in the reporting, financial institutions receive immunity for meeting obligations under this Act.

    So in essence, while there's no direct Federal or state law on point, the bank can report you to the US Government if they find cash in your safety deposit box. I am sure banks really don't want to police their customer's saftey deposit boxes so therefore they tell you that there's a law prohibiting it while in actuality the law is aimed at forcing the bank to police their customers.

    So I suppose that keeping large sums of cash, bullion or even rare coins might raise the suspicion of a overly vehement bank employee so that he/she might file a report with local, state and federal law enforcement. Which would result in a knock on your door.

    Otherwise, I doubt highly that banks are strongly enforcing this policy.

    Michael
  • mrearlygoldmrearlygold Posts: 17,858 ✭✭✭
    Thank heavens for lawyersimage


    Tom
  • K6AZK6AZ Posts: 9,295
    I don't know how other banks operate, but at the three banks where I have boxes, the employees are prohibited from looking at what is in your box, and it takes two keys to get into the box, the one I have and the bank's key. I don't know how they would be able to tell what was in my box.
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    If I can insure coins in my safe box, I don't know why or how it could be illegal. I don't think a major insurance company would insure coins if they were kept in an illegal (safe box) location. Of course I haven't had a claim to find out either. image
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • I don't know how they would be able to tell what was in my box.

    They wouldn't have to know for sure, they would just have to be suspicious. You walk in with a duffle bag that appears full, gain entry into your box. Leave without the bag or with an empty looking bag -- looks like you stuck alot of something into your box. Busybody bank employee calls and reports you to the Treasury Dept/FBI as someone that is depositing large amounts of items into a safety deposit box. FBI swings by, they drill the box and look inside for a "sneak and peek" search.

    All it takes really. I'm not saying this happens but it certainly could.

    Michael

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