NGC to attribute 5FS and 6FS Jefferson nickels - will PCGS follow suit?

Hoot · January 28, 2004 1:31AM

Great news! Beginning February 16th, NGC will begin recognizing BOTH 5 and 6 step Jefferson nickels and placing the 5FS and 6FS label on the holder! To date, the FS designation with NGC has only been given to 6 step nickels, but with PCGS, it's given to 5 and better step nickels. The new distinction is similar to ANACS, but this will have implications in the registry. Do you think PCGS will follow suit? Will this have other market implications?

NGC Distinguishes Jefferson Nickel Steps

Hoot

spy88 · January 28, 2004 1:56AM

This is THE most important news for Jeff collectors on both sides of the "street". It is my sincere desire to see PCGS consider adopting the same policy and see it as a benefit to themselves, their customers and Jeff collectors utilizing both services.

I for one, see the time when there will be premiums placed on the variations of FS Jeffs from 5-5-5-5 to 6-6-6-6. As almost every Jeff starts out as an "intended" 6 stepper, bridging can and does eliminate many/all steps, especially between the second and third pillars. I envision a 6-6-5-6 being considered a slightly better coin to have then a 6-5-5-6, etc.

nwcs · January 28, 2004 2:01AM

They probably won't follow suit for now. Especially since it would look like a "me too" situation for PCGS who wants to be seen as a market leader. They might choose some variation of it, though. Think of all the resubmissions this all generates...

dorkkarl · January 28, 2004 2:13AM

gee i hope not. what kind of nutcase has time to count steps?

K S

spy88 · January 28, 2004 2:14AM

nwcs, as you are probably correct in your assessment, it would be dis-heartening to think one TPGS would defer from an obvious win-win-win situation just to keep from "appearing" to follow anothers lead.

From any TPGS point of view, the service/benefit to a customer should be of primary concern. Issues of "appearances" should never be a consideration.

cosmicdebris · January 28, 2004 2:15AM

Of course PCGS will. It will mean more money from slabbers sending coins to be reattibuted.

keets · January 28, 2004 2:56AM

before you get all worked up about this, stop and think about what will change---submission of less than 6-Full Step coins to NGC. PCGS already designates FS with 5=Full Steps and 6-Full Steps. NGC currently designates FS with 6-Full Steps only. it's nothing more than an attempt to increase submissions of Jefferson Nickels at NGC.

instead of either service working harder to designate Full Steps, i for one wish they would concentrate more on not designating less than fully struck coins with nicks and bridges. as to the 6-6-5-6 being mentioned by spy88, that's just something a FS collector is forced to accept. it's the area which is generally struck weak, under the third pillar at the sixth step, on even the nicest coins. if a hefty premium is to be paid for FS coins, i'd rather pay it for a 5-5-5-5 that's solid and clean than something else whic has soft abrasions and outright flaws.

in the past you could be confident that an NGC FS coin had full detail of all six steps. what this amounts to is a weakening of the grading standard for Jefferson Nickels at NGC. moving backwards is a good thing?? i think not. i'm not as interested in extra notations on the holder as i am in a stricter grading standard, but that's just me. others may like this marketing improvement.

al h.

Hoot · January 28, 2004 3:52AM

Well I don't think that the grading standards are changing at all. An MS65 will still be an MS65, but a collector will be able to better distinguish the strength of the strike in the area of the steps of Monticello, at least with 5 and 6 step coins. I also don't think that there is any intention to loosen standards with respect to bridges and nicks in the steps, only for NGC to catch up with the long history of recognizing 5 or more steps as "full steps," as has been the case with collectors for better than 25 years. A nickel with bridges and nicks in the first 5 steps will not get a 5FS attribution and one with bridges or nicks between steps 5 and 6 will not get a 6FS attribution. So, I fail to see how this makes matters worse. Indeed, right now, the only way to tell if a PCGS coin attributed "FS" is better than 5 full steps is to have it in-hand, which is a luxury that many collectors cannot afford. So, I hope that PCGS will catch up to this standard, or even do one better by placing the step count on the label (i.e., 5-5-5-5 to 6-6-6-6).

More information is better. This is definitely not a step backwards, rather a good leap in the right direction. ANACS and SEGS took that lead and now NGC has come around to understanding the wisdom of it. Collectors will benefit, as there will still be no ambiguity of what an NGC designated nickel attributes. Will this mean more submissions or resubmissions? Yes, but that's strictly up to collectors. In the past I've just sent all of my 5 or 5+ step coins to PCGS or ANACS for the FS designation, so I guess it just makes that playing field a little more wide-open.

"i for one wish they would concentrate more on not designating less than fully struck coins with nicks and bridges. ...Only SEGS makes notations of this sort. Coins with nicks and bridges ususally do not pass the test for FS with NGC, PCGS, or ANACS. Besides, a fully struck nickel isn't only about the steps, as you know. Again, this changes no standards of grading at all.

I also think it's a great thing that there will be a distinction in the NGC registry for 5 vs. 6 step nickels. Perhaps NGC should consider all PCGS FS designated nickels 5 steppers, since there's no way to tell if they're 6 step coins (and most aren't)! That'd be fine by me.

Hoot

keets · January 28, 2004 4:08AM

A nickel with bridges and nicks in the first 5 steps will not get a 5FS attribution and one with bridges or nicks between steps 5 and 6 will not get a 6FS attribution.

"i for one wish they would concentrate more on not designating less than fully struck coins with nicks and bridges. ...Only SEGS makes notations of this sort. Coins with nicks and bridges ususally do not pass the test for FS with NGC, PCGS, or ANACS.

hey Hoot

i routinely see PCGS and ANACS holdered coins with nicks and bridges and the FS designation on the insert. that's what i was referring to in the above statement, a better effort to not holder such coins as FS. there is only a minute number of fully-struck, six-step coins with no nicks or bridges for the entire series. i would much prefer a better effort to correctly designate those than what i see as an effort to aid a collector in counting steps.

al h.

Placid · January 28, 2004 4:17AM

If I can't tell something about a coin just by looking without magnification I tend not to care much.

Hoot · January 28, 2004 4:17AM

"i routinely see PCGS and ANACS holdered coins with nicks and bridges and the FS designation on the insert. that's what i was referring to in the above statement, a better effort to not holder such coins as FS. there is only a minute number of fully-struck, six-step coins with no nicks or bridges for the entire series."

Hi keets - Yes, I see your point, and agree with you whole-heartedly.

Hoot

keets · January 28, 2004 4:34AM

If I can't tell something about a coin just by looking without magnification I tend not to care much.

hey Placid

i understand that point and for the most part agree with it. i will, however, pay a premium for certain detail. things like Full Steps, Full Bell Lines, Full Head, Full Split Bands, etc. just can't really be discerned without at least a 3-5X glass----not by my eyes at least. i generally grade at home and on the road with only my reading glasses and good light as you suggest. many, many collectors make the mistake of grading with glass in hand. i routinely cherrypick the local dealer and some of the guys in the area clubs because they do that. they'll give a coin the once over and pronounce it AU and i'll look at it and see MS.

with Jefferson Nickels, it's easy enough with good light for me to be able to know if i need to give a coin's steps a closer look. with the post 1990 issues they recut the dies and improved the detail. i sometimes can see the steps clearly unaided. it's best to always look with a glass if i'm paying a premium for FS, so i do.

al h.

spy88 · January 28, 2004 4:49AM

<< if a hefty premium is to be paid for FS coins, i'd rather pay it for a 5-5-5-5 that's solid and clean than something else whic has soft abrasions and outright flaws. >>

Absolutely with you on this, Al. As a fanatic for a full step Jeff over a non-FS one (although a keenly struck non-FS is attractive to me), I will pay premium for the 5-5-5-5 and better that is free of any problems on the steps.

<< in the past you could be confident that an NGC FS coin had full detail of all six steps. what this amounts to is a weakening of the grading standard for Jefferson Nickels at NGC. >>

I couldn't disagree more with you on this! Instead of an ultra-strict FS rating reserved only for 6 full steps, NGC is indirectly admitting to the fact that there are many years throughout the Jeff series that do not have 6 steps. How could one then put together a Reg set of NGC holdered 6FS Jeffs for the entire series? You couldn't! UPdating their labels to include 5FS Jeffs allows a collector to now do this and is of benefit to all.

As not very many people outside of "seasoned" Jeff submitters to NGC knew of their FS going only to a Jeff with 6 steps, the inclusion of the 5FS NGC label will also open up the market for NGC to be recognized as a competitor against PCGS FS Jeffs.

Being able to own/sell a NGC 5FS labeled Jeff gives a potential buyer the knowledge of step count along with grade. Previously, a NGC Jeff without a FS could very well have been a 5 (or better) step coin! This new service simply evens the playing field for all Jeff collectors and grading services.

keets · January 28, 2004 5:46AM

hey spy

regarding the many years without six-step coins, i'd imagine there are dates which won't be found even in five-steps. all that aside, it's long been common knowledge that NGC required six-full-steps, so you won't find many coins with five-full-steps in their holders, at least i haven't. one more thing, if it used to take six steps and it now will only take five for the FS designation, how can you not see that as a lowering of standards. simply put, it now takes less to be designated FS at NGC, regardless of what else they put on the insert.

al h.

spy88 · January 28, 2004 5:59AM

Al,

<< if it used to take six steps and it now will only take five for the FS designation, how can you not see that as a lowering of standards. simply put, it now takes less to be designated FS at NGC, regardless of what else they put on the insert. >>

I think it is a matter of semantics now. What you consider as a "lowering" of standards is to me, an "evening" of the standards. I can see your point, but you have to realize that NGC is NOT just going to put a FS on a label for a Jeff that has 5-5-5-5 steps. That coin would get a "5FS" label. Any 6-6-6-6 Jeffs will get a "6FS" label. A definite distinction between the two, not just a blanket FS for 5 and above steps. If anything, I see this as a important clarification to what is in the slab.

David

Hoot · January 28, 2004 6:02AM

"how can you not see that as a lowering of standards. simply put, it now takes less to be designated FS at NGC, regardless of what else they put on the insert."

hi keets - I don't want to speak for spy88, but the reason it's not a lowering of the standards for FS designation is that the holders will be marked 5FS or 6FS, so you'll still be able to distinguish a 6 step coin, regardless of when it was graded. NGC is stating up-front that a 5 step coin will be worth less in the registry than a 6 stepper, and I think that's entirely fair. In fact, I wish it had been that way from the beginning. So, no standards have been lowered, only a new tier added. Again, additional information is a good thing.

One thing true for sure: 6 step coins in the series have been largely undervalued in the market. Or looking at it the opposite way, 5 step coins have been overvalued. I say this because they have traded alongside all 5 step coins (PCGS designated FS) as if there is no difference. I believe the reason for this is simply that the registry competition has driven the prices. I believe this will continue, but this move by NGC will draw attention to the factual differences between the coins. What I hope is that 5 step coins will decrease in value and that 6 steppers will become the leading market standard. Perhaps I'm only dreaming and what will happen is that 6 step coins will go out the roof (especially if PCGS gets on board). I do believe, however, that we will begin to see a tiered monetary value structure to the series, with the most undervalued coins of all being gem and super gem pieces without FS. Those are sleepers, and more than a few sleeping in my collection

Hoot

LAWMAN · January 28, 2004 6:20AM

I think PCGS will have to follow this as soon as it looks like they aren't just tagging along. This and other developments auger well for the future of the still vastly underpriced Jefferson nickel series -- the two new reverses this year and more to come; the 2003's being maybe the last of the Jeff obv and Monticello rev (at least as pictured), now this-- we need more matte special versions from the Mint like the two in the 90's which have nice, healthy prices. Now this. I say it is a good time to buy, buy, buy those Jeffs while they are nice and cheap and to re-submit the really strong strikes for revisited step counts -- I'd just hate to be the grader who has to sit there 40 hours a week counting steps. Its enought to make a person dyslexic.

clackamas · January 28, 2004 6:33AM

I hope PCGS follows, I have an MS65FS 45-P jeff. Not a terribly uncommon coin except the coin in my registry set is a 6 step coin. This is nearly unheard of and the NGC POP is 1 for FS on this coin. Someday when I pass away my heirs will probably sell this coin and have no idea how rare a 6 step 45-P is and get hosed for not knowing better.

I think NGC changed its tune because when the new Jeff comes out this year they anticipate an increase in the collection of this series and need/want to cash in. NGC recognizes that the vast majority of Older nickels have 5 steps and no one in their right mind would send a 5 step coin to NGC

cladking · January 28, 2004 8:15AM

Jeffersons are going to start getting more attention. The more the grading services
have their acts together when people start looking, the better.

pontiacinf · January 28, 2004 8:38AM

bigtonydallas · May 6, 2011 6:52AM

I KNOW THIS IS AN OLD THREAD!

But does PCGS still designate FS for 5+ steps?

BigDowgie · May 6, 2011 7:10AM

bigtonydallas,

Man-o-man, I was reading this thread wondering what the heck is going on here and then saw the date of the thread. Relieved!

Yes, PCGS will place FS on their holders for 5+ steps. There is still the long running debate on which service is better at it!!!

bigtonydallas · May 9, 2011 2:23AM

Allcoinsrule,
You mean the date of the coin is 1990 or earlier has to have 5 steps+ and the date 1991 has to have a full 6 steps and not the date of the grading?

DennisH · May 9, 2011 2:33AM

<< If I can't tell something about a coin just by looking without magnification I tend not to care much. >>

Same here, which is why when I started collecting Jeffersons I decided to leave FS coins to the folks who like 'em while I concentrated on grade.

keets · May 9, 2011 6:18AM

the "if i can't tell" arguement sounds good on the surface but it really isn't a different game whether you're talking about a designation for Full Steps, a VAM designation or a number for the overall grade, you still need to look at the coin to make the decision for yourself. as i have said in another thread that's a bit more current than this one, what would be helpful is if PCGS/NGC would clarify exactly what constitutes each designation and what causes it not to be added to an insert. that's the only real thing about the designation(s) that needs to be understood, just as we need to understand what constitutes a specific grade.

Dennis, i find it a bit disingenuous that you would criticize another collector by saying If I can't tell something about a coin just by looking without magnification I tend not to care much while you actively peruse Morgan Dollars for the subtle nuances that distinguish one VAM from another. are you telling us that you do that without the aid of magnification??? i suspect that you're collecting habit with VAM's is no different than those of a FS collector except that the latter only turns his focus to a small, very specific area which he generally magnifies to be certain. six of one, half a dozen of the other...............................

---------------------it's my understanding that the Mint reworked the Master Die(s) prior to striking 1990 Jefferson Nickels; PCGS requires six full steps after 1989 is how i have always assumed.

Zoins · May 9, 2011 6:24AM

Is it preferable to have separate designations for 5FS and 6FS or a single catch-all FS designation?

DennisH · May 9, 2011 6:41AM

Keets:

Why do you automatically assume that I practice VAM collecting in its full microscoptic nuances? In that you are wrong. I also find it offensive that you would use a stereotype-broad brush in a public forum to characterize a collector for whom you have no detailed knowledge of them or their holdings.

The fact is that most of the VAMs I look for and own are coins whose diagnostic features really can be seen with the naked eye -- Hot Lips, Tail Bars, Shifted Eagles, Micro O, Micro S, overdates, overmintmarks, B1 reverses, pitted reverses, and the like. If it takes huge magnification to identify, then I truly "tend not to care much". The words "tend to" and "much" leave some wiggle room, yet you instead decided to stuff me into a single small box based upon your perception and understanding of the VAM hobby. Why?

keets · May 9, 2011 6:48AM

i guess i'd be curious to know why you're critical in a subtle way about collectors who look closely at certain attributes of a coin to be sure what is on the insert is in fact on the coin?? like i said, six of one, half a dozen of the other.

DennisH · May 9, 2011 6:59AM

I guess I'd be curious to know why you not agreeing with how another collector approaches collecting isn't OK?

keets · May 9, 2011 7:12AM

and i said that when??

i haven't criticized anything but your criticism, but this is really starting to get nitpicky and silly. have a nice day.

DennisH · May 9, 2011 7:15AM

Thank you sir. I agree. Have a good one too.

blu62vette · May 9, 2011 7:23AM

Keets: I've known DennisH and been with him at shows for several years. I've seen the VAMs he buys. He most definitely sticks to ones with pretty obvious features. We talk about how vamming is getting into such minutia that it borders on if not already hurting that segment of the hobby. I would not place him as one who needs a high power loupe and then looks for an obscure scratch.

Aside from that I do agree with your point of view that a definition would be beneficial to help the full steppers. I don't think VAM's and FS are that similar, VAMS have very defined markers that are defined. Would be good to have the same for the full steps. Getting everyone to agree on that definition is a different story.

leothelyon · May 9, 2011 11:16AM

Wasn't there a topic on how near-sighted people don't need magnification?

The FS designation like all the others IMO are only there for those folks who rely on them for definition and profits. But however this might sound trivial to many, having a dependence on what others think can and has become quite confusing. If you have not come to terms with your own definition of the designation, then you will continue to experience your dissatisfaction for the use of all designations.

The key word here is, "definition". Not only in words but more importantly, 3D. I won't go into trying to explain but rather let you all get back to your trivial topic.

Leo

leothelyon · May 10, 2011 12:38PM

Aside from the topic, what's Hoot been up to? Anyone know?

Leo

bigtonydallas · May 12, 2011 12:20AM

Wow sorry for opening a can of worms.

I understand that some people don't want to use a glass to look for varities. Which I have no problems with. That just leaves more for me to find with my glass. Send me all your 1945 Mercs with full split bands, 1954-S, 1965, 1966, 1968-S, 1970-D Jeffs with full steps and 1953-S Frankies with full bell lines.

To each his own!

bigtonydallas · May 17, 2011 4:21AM

I just bought this coin off Ebay (PCGS MS64FS). It has a big ding in the steps but the ding does not break the steps all the way down. There is about 50% of those steps left. I guess that is how they determine if it is a full step.

What do you all think?

clackamas · May 17, 2011 6:13AM

<< I just bought this coin off Ebay (PCGS MS64FS). It has a big ding in the steps but the ding does not break the steps all the way down. There is about 50% of those steps left. I guess that is how they determine if it is a full step.

What do you all think? >>

There was a time when PCGS was more lax than they are now, that coin would not get FS today.

keets · May 17, 2011 6:21AM

based solely on the pictures provided and my interpretation of the criteria for the Full Step designation i would'nt call that a FS coin.

BigDowgie · May 17, 2011 8:03AM

From the pictures, that "big ding" cuts all the way through the 1st, 2nd and 3rd indented lines. I do not see a continuous line running through there? Should have never been graded an FS.

bigtonydallas · May 19, 2011 2:15AM

I bought the coin (PCGS MS64FS) in the pics from Ebay for only $8. Will PCGS replace the coin if it is not FS? Or can they give me a coupon for a free grade? Does anyone know?

Thanks,

Type2 · May 19, 2011 3:00AM

I think if it is in a PCGS holder and it's not that gade they will give you your $$$ back.

bigtonydallas · May 19, 2011 3:08AM

I WOULD PREFER THE FREE COUPON! LOL

DIMEMAN · May 19, 2011 3:19AM

That's all the collecting world needs.......more nit picking. I'm glad I don't collect Jeffs.

I personally don't care about steps or bands or bell lines......couldn't care less.

As someone else already mentioned, this is just a way of generating more submissions.

You collectors of "full anything" are like sheep mindlessly walking into the barn saying "sheer me please" baaaah.

BigDowgie · May 19, 2011 5:03AM

bigtonydallas - Here are some pointers when considering a return to PCGS. A 1973 Jefferson in MS64FS lists as a $15 coin by PCGS. Not worthy enough to try the PCGS process. You should have returned the ebay item back to the seller if not satified. To return a coin to PCGS, you have to pay for the grading fee level you select and shipping both ways, then they have to agree it's not an FS (or designated grade) coin, which they ususally won't. I know they have reversed their opinion on some coins, but more an exception than the rule. So, you have to be prepared to pay and roll the dice!

DIMEMAN - No comment!

bigtonydallas · May 19, 2011 6:41AM

Dimeman, would you collect an 1905-micro O Barber dime? If not, do you have one and I'll pay you regular O money!

BigDowgie, thanks for your input. It is not even worth returning on Ebay and I will just learn from this.

stephunter · May 19, 2011 2:08PM

<<

That's all the collecting world needs.......more nit picking. I'm glad I don't collect Jeffs.

I personally don't care about steps or bands or bell lines......couldn't care less.

As someone else already mentioned, this is just a way of generating more submissions.

You collectors of "full anything" are like sheep mindlessly walking into the barn saying "sheer me please" baaaah. >>

Cool. More for us.

DIMEMAN · May 19, 2011 2:12PM

Bigtonydallas - What does FS nickels have to do with micro O dimes??????????????????????????????????????

I'm talking about not caring about FB FS and FBL not varieties! I LOVE varieties!!!

bigtonydallas · May 20, 2011 8:01AM

Dimeman. I am trying to understand your anger towards FS, FB , FH & FBL collectors. What if they come out with a full tail buffalo nickle designation? I would guess you would not collect wire rim gold pieces cause that is nit picking? If you have any 1945 FB mercs lying around, send me one. I am not trying to make light of your disgust but I do not understand it!!! I consider the FS, FB, FH & FBL collectors as full strike collectors and not nit pickers.

keets · May 20, 2011 8:46AM

while i can't speak for the other strike designations, i will try to help our esteemed collector of ten cent coins understand the relevance of the FS(Full Steps) designation. as Jackie Gleason used to say...............And away we gooooooooooo!!!!

the dies used to strike Jefferson Nickels have been a problem ever since the design was approved. buildings are not a good thing when it comes to coin design and to have a building running east-to-west opposite a portrait running north-to-south means very, very bad metal flow at the center of this coin(i would also mention that compared to the relatively soft nature of a Silver alloy, Nickel is a nightmare). complicating things is the fact that the deepest part of the obverse die lies directly opposite the most detailed feature of the reverse die. that means that while metal is trying to flow into the step area it is simultaneously being pulled away to fill the obverse die.

any Jefferson Nickel collector knows that the two areas of unstruck planchet tend to be Jefferson's jawline and the area of the steps under pillar number three, typically from the third step down. the best struck coins will have those areas completely filled and smooth, while some of the higher graded coins may have the step area mentioned incomplete and/or the jawline showing minute pinholes. collectors have come to realize these facts so they place a premium on fully struck coins and have sought to recognize the completeness of strike by counting the Full Steps. a purist will count by quarter steps but collectors in general consider an entire step either complete or incomplete.

in plain english, the steps are fairly reliable indicator of strike quality. while not perfect by any means, the Hobby has come to accept the FS designation as an indicator of quality relevant to a coins overall grade.

NGC to attribute 5FS and 6FS Jefferson nickels - will PCGS follow suit?

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The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

The more qualities observed in a coin, the more desirable that coin becomes!

My Jefferson Nickel Collection

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