Interesting conversation between two dealers re doctors (thread from 2003)

gsaguy · March 2, 2003 8:54AM

While I was standing at a table looking at a dealer's wares, another dealer walked up, sat down, and then handed a Walking Liberty Half to the dealer behind the table.

"Just paid $2200 for that piece. Send it to Billy for lazering and AT'ing. Too many hairlines to get the grade I need."

I said, "did you say lazering and AT'ing?" He said, "yep, he's good, he'll knock those hairlines right off of there."

I find this BS outrageous but don't know what to do. Any suggestions besides giving up coin collecting?

GSAGUY

jbsteven · March 2, 2003 9:00AM

hmmmmm

stman · March 2, 2003 9:02AM

That icon says it all. I just love that blue little thing.

SarasotaFrank · March 2, 2003 9:02AM

I was purchasing a Peace dollar at a show and a fellow came up to me asking if I wanted to see the collection he had in his van.

He later came up to a table where I was standing and showed a coin to the dealer asking an opinion. The dealer points out problems and the fellow told him he would "fix that stuff up" before selling it.

He was surprised when I turned around and said "I think I'll pass on those Peace Dollars".

unscrupulous dealers are driving novices from the hobby and casuing experienced collectors like yourself to think twice

FC57Coins · March 2, 2003 9:06AM

It is sad to hear that Bryan. The certification services have to get better at doing what they do and we have to get better at being able to tell what it is that we're looking at. There ARE fake Van Goghs, Picasso's, etc out there. Doesn't mean we have to stop admiring the real thing, we just have to educate and be educated!

Frank

bigt · March 2, 2003 9:09AM

Bryan,
That is the third time I've heard that lately {six monthes and different people}
Maybe thats one of the reasons PCGS and NGC have tightened up so much.

Tim

anoldgoat · March 2, 2003 9:12AM

I'm glad i'm just putting together "fine" and "unc" Lincoln sets. I guess stick with merchants you trust.

FC57Coins · March 2, 2003 9:13AM

<< <i>That is the third time I've heard that lately {six monthes and different people}
Maybe thats one of the reasons PCGS and NGC have tightened up so much. >>

If they know something is up they should warn collectors.

So here's another question. Let's say you pay $1000 for a monster toned 81S dollar in a pcgsms65 slab and it turns out to be one of these lazered whatever coins? - What happens to the guarantee????

Frank

truthteller · March 2, 2003 9:18AM

This is a vivid example of how the doctors with KILL the industry. I, for one, have cut back on major personal coin expenditures. There will be a shake up soon, and it doesn't look good. In fact, I was told recently that a semi- major coin auction house has merely $50,000 in stock capital left for operations and is working off the float on checks. WOW

TRUTH

MadMarty · March 2, 2003 9:18AM

You are paying for the grade not the tone.

fcloud · March 2, 2003 9:22AM

Maybe it is time to stop collecting again.

If the technology is that good, maybe it corrolates to why PCGS is getting so tough.

sinin1 · March 2, 2003 9:22AM

gsaguy -> here is what you can do -> tell us the name of those 2 dealers so we remember not to do business with them !

FC57 -> an 81-S PCGS MS65 has about a $65 dollar bluesheet value, what makes you think it is worth $1000? I do not believe PCGS backs color, just sight unseen numbers.

jeffnpcb · March 2, 2003 9:26AM

With the technology today, the inflated value of toned coins and high MS coins it tends to put a shutter through your spine and think"Am I getting my moneys worth". I'd be leary of any highly toned coined that was recently slabbed.

It may be time to have a date code and cross ref.# put on the reverse side of any slabbed coin. An inventory control number stating the specifics of each would also be nice. We have the technology and a way to use it, why don't they use it now! Lazy and complacentcy is all I can think of at the moment!

jamesfsm · March 2, 2003 9:29AM

Billy must have some great equipment.

relayer · March 2, 2003 9:55AM

A coin, like every other object in the universe, consists of matter which is energy at rest.

Because matter is grouped as atoms that then bind together to form molecules, all you have to do is manipuate the molecules to change the object. That can be done either chemically or physically.

Our tools have become more advanced where we can make changes at the molecular and atomic level.

There is debate about human cloning, stem cell research, biological and nuclear weapons.

Don't be the least bit surprised that someone can do anything they want to a hunk of metal as large as a coin.

gsaguy · March 2, 2003 10:02AM

For the record, I've seen "Billy's" AT jobs and they're not impressive. As Laura has posted in the past, the laser job is to reduce or remove hairlines and the AT is an attempt to further conceal that work.

I also suspect that the dealer who was asking for the coin to be submitted to the coin doctor plans to sell the piece raw as opposed to trying to have it certified.

I'd be VERY suspicious of any 'high grade, high dollar' coin being sold raw. Remember, if it seems too good to be true, it probably is.

My recommendation to all collectors who want to buy high priced coins is to buy coins that have been certified by a reputable grading service.

GSAGUY

roadrunner · March 2, 2003 10:14AM

Maybe this is one reason to stay in the more esoteric areas of numismatics where there are fewer coins to mess with coupled with fewer buyers to try and dump them on. Dollars are a great coin to be played with because of huge spreads in higher grades and large demand from set builders.

roadrunner

CLASSICS · March 2, 2003 10:29AM

was this some well known dealer? or one of those fleamarket dealers you see sitting behind a table with mustard stains on the front of his shirt?,

Singapore · March 2, 2003 11:25AM

Outrageous as this sounds, its nothing new - enhancing coins to sell them for more $ has been going on for a really, really long time - well before 3rd party grading.

Maybe its worse now, as the 'doctoring technology' has improved, and the unscrupulous among us only have to get the stuff through the grading services to gain their 'OK' stamp of approval and suddenly have a 'legitimate' coin to sell.

And while the ACGs of the world are obvious offenders, don't kind yourself - this stuff gets holdered by ANACS and NGC and PCGS as well.

As to what to do about it - I think your options are few:

1. Immediately find a new hobby.

2. Collect low end stuff that no one doctors.

3. Buy only pedigreed stuff that you can trace back 100 years like Adrian's Gem 65 Wreath Cent (thats what I do).

The suggestion of buying only from reputable dealers is a unfortunately not a complete solution. Once these coins get through PCGS and NGC any reputable dealer may have a few in inventory. It ain't easy to tell.

Whitewashqtr · March 2, 2003 11:31AM

You are paying for the grade not the tone

Marty.. this statement is as far from the truth as I have seen. EYE APPEAL is what drives you to a coin in the first place. Want to buy the grade , then buy the holder.

How many "monster toned" coins have we all seen that sell for 5x, 10x, 20x their common looking values.

Cheers

WWQ

darktone · March 2, 2003 9:44PM

gsaguy- this is a very interesting thread I am glad you started it. Does anyone have one of these coins that has been altered with lazers? It would be nice to see pictures of a coin that has had this done? Those of us in this hobby for the long haul will have to figure out how to spot these coins. mike

Legend · March 2, 2003 9:54PM

GSA GUY,

Its very sad that you heard this. But have faith, this is exactly who the stopcoinfraud people plan on atrgeting (the group being formed by John Albanese).

It will take some time, but things will get done. I think most of these doctors know their time is limited.

UncleJoe · March 2, 2003 10:05PM

Happy Birthday to me, Happy Birthday to me. (and if you look at my icon you will get an idea of just how old.)

As far as ruining the hobby, I think not. You have to decide what is important to you.

When I jumped back into collecting (NOT investing) coins I became aware (in large part due to this message board) of the problems encountered with UNC (or almost UNC) coins.

It was then that I decided that I did not have the eye, knowledge or experience to be involved with UNC coins so I don't do MS and I have been having a great time ever since.

I don't have to be worried about being taken for large gobs of money and I enjoy my collections (mostly circulated Buffalo Nickels in all grades from restored dates to AU) very, very much.

Joe.

mrfred · March 2, 2003 10:56PM

I'm with roadrunner on this one.

All the depressing talk about AT and doctors and such has pretty much convinced me to start serious collecting of world coins. My next bulk purchase is going to be one of those cheapo world coin deals: you know, such-and-so pounds for 50 bucks or so. I daresay I'll get some junk in there and duplicates, but dollar-for-dollar, I'll get more quantity. And if some of the stuff seems interesting to upgrade, well then I won't run into all this nonsense.

It's sad, really. There are heaps of wonderful U.S. coins, but if I really do invest and move up the ladder of quality, sooner or later I am going to get really royally ripped off. Sad.

Twowood · March 2, 2003 11:47PM

<< <i> Does anyone have one of these coins that has been altered with lazers? >>

How would we know whether or not any of our coins have been lasered? Does it matter?
If you had an opportunity to buy anundetectable lasered MS69 coin at a reasonable price, would you buy it or would your principles NOT allow you to own it?
I know what I'd do! Twowood

dorkkarl · March 3, 2003 12:02AM

imo, the influx of doctored coins can be tied very directly to the advent of slabs. only since slabing became such a lucrative business has doctoring become so sophisticated. way back when, it was whizzed coins, or polished stuff. easy for any fool to spot. now?

K S

darktone · March 3, 2003 9:14AM

Twowood, I would love to have a coin that was altered by lazer to study and try to find an easy way to detect it. I have heard that the process is used on gold coins mostly and that's what I collect. mike

Russ · March 3, 2003 9:34AM

For those of us who are new to this hobby, this type of thing is very worrisome. Good thing I only collect stuff the doctors don't care about. Oh wait! I forgot that it took me about seven months in to this adventure before I bought a doctored coin - PCGS slabbed, and from a VERY reputable dealer, BTW.

Point is, even we who aren't buying MONDO MONSTER THE PRICE OF A HOUSE COINS are also vulnerable to this crap.

Russ, NCNE

wallstreetman · March 3, 2003 3:36PM

Been buying coins for color? Just when you thought you paid the big bucks, you find its time to pay more, I told you to stick with WHITE! Toned coins will be located in the basement soon!

dorkkarl · March 3, 2003 7:41PM

"billy" has been around for a while, & yes, he works w/ A LOT of the dealers. in spite of legend's little posse, i don't think he's going anywhere soon.

there are at least six dealers who use his "services" frequently.

K S

nwcs · March 3, 2003 10:41PM

It's an arms race, basically. When one side raises the standards, the other side will compensate for it. So I'm not surprised that when the hobby created safeguards from earlier types of doctoring, the doctors got better. Now that the doctors are good enough, the hobby is striking back. Which means that the doctors will improve again soon.

As for toned vs. white, who cares?! Coin doctors can ruin either coin. And there are just as many ways to mess up a white coin as there are ways to AT coins.

Neil

BillJones · March 3, 2003 11:14PM

From GSAguy:

My recommendation to all collectors who want to buy high priced coins is to buy coins that have been certified by a reputable grading service.

While slabs are a marketing tool, the fact that an expensive coin has not been certified is often an indicator that it either CAN'T be certifed or would only be certified with qualifiers by ANACS. Pruchases expensive raw coins is a risk that only experieced dealers and collectors should undertake.

AlbaJohn · March 3, 2003 11:14PM

Dear GSA guy- I would like to know more about this "Billy" please call when you get a chance. Thanks John Albanese 800-274-9972.

VonZipper · March 3, 2003 11:31PM

Could'nt the government get involved with shuting these people down? I thought it was illegal to deface money?

dorkkarl · March 3, 2003 11:43PM

c'mon, dudes! yeah yeah yeah, it's easy to dismiss what i say as being "anti-plastic" babbling, but face the facts. sophistication of coin doctors has risen as a direct result of the prevalance of plastic. take it from me, i've been around a "few" years. never in the history of coin-collecting have i been able to walk out on the bourse floor & seen more a-t, doctored, cleaned, dipped, colored coins than i can today.

i'll say it again, as long as plastic creates the market for doctored coins, the coin doctors will be happy to oblige.

K S

baccaruda · March 3, 2003 11:50PM

I find this BS outrageous but don't know what to do. Any suggestions besides giving up coin collecting?

yep. don't buy expensive coins.

baccaruda · March 4, 2003 12:01AM

if you know who does this why not plaster their names in huge red letters all over this thread?

TONEDDOLLARS · March 4, 2003 12:24AM

Bryan,

I meant this as a pm

NumisEd · March 4, 2003 12:37AM

Just what does the "coin doctor posse" intend to do with people like Billy or the other coin doctors? Hmmm? The coin doctors will argue that they are just doing the same thing as NCS, only with different methods. To some degree, they would be correct in saying that. If the coin dealers that peddle doctored coins are eliminated, then we will down to 3 or 4 dealers in the US. JMO.

I think that the posse really cannot and will not do anything about coin doctors. This is nothing more than a publicity stunt to advertise that members of the "posse" are the good guys. That's it. They are just advertising that they are good guys and gals. Many people will fall for this stunt, too. Pass the barf bucket, please.

Zerbe · March 4, 2003 12:38AM

Coin Doctors Suck !

dorkkarl · March 4, 2003 1:24AM

it's exceptionally difficult for me to believe that john albanese has never heard of "billy". is this the case? if so, the posse has no chance. sounds more like custer's last stand.

K S

coinguy1 · March 4, 2003 1:30AM

karl,

You are severely underestimating the impact that John's group will have. Be patient - the results will be there.

dorkkarl · March 4, 2003 1:33AM

coinguy, PLEASE tell me that you, or someone in the posse, knows who "billy" is! if not, trust me your efforts are doomed! it'd be a case of the blind leading the blind!

K S

coinguy1 · March 4, 2003 1:35AM

Karl, I know who he is.

NumisEd · March 4, 2003 1:36AM

Mark, that would be like trying to stop odometer roll backs in the used car industry........not gonna happen.....EVER. But if I owned a used car dealership and then formed a posse that "claimed" that it would go after all of those bad dealers who roll back odometers, then I would guess that the general sheep-like population of used car buyers would subconsciously assume that I was one of the few good used car dealers. The few smart, non-sheeplike used car buyers would see right through this bull crap.

Mark, don't tell me that you are falling for this gimmick......are you?

coinguy1 · March 4, 2003 1:39AM

NumisEd - it is not a gimmick. It sounds as if you don't trust ANY coin dealers. That is your right, but if that's how you feel, we'll have to agree to disagree.

wallstreetman · March 4, 2003 1:40AM

VonZipper, It is not illegal to deface money, you just cant try an change it to a larger denomination!

NumisEd · March 4, 2003 1:43AM

Mark, I do trust a few select coin dealers. Again, mainly I trust the ones who do not play the slabbing game. If I walk by and see a table with nice, bust and seated coins that are raw, I stop to take a look. For one thing, I know that my buying competition is smaller, since most of the sheep-like public cannot grade coins for themselves and are afraid of REAL coin dealers who are not afraid to deal in raw, high grade coins. I call it integrity.

Bear · March 4, 2003 1:44AM

Peer pressure is a powerful tool, as the people on the Forum should know.

This is a major dealer undertaking and to do it right and legally correct, will take

careful planning and execution. The caliber of the committee seems exemplary and in time,

I am expecting great things from their efforts. Coin doctors are not only a blot upon the

coin industry, they also pose a threat to dealers as they will impact collector confidence in

coins. Such a lack of confidence will translate into less collectors and less bussiness for all

dealers. It is not only honorable and altruistic what is charged to the committee, it is also

of vital interest to the very income of the dealers. Collectors have the need and the right,

to expect the coins that are legitimate for the grade, color and appearance. Without that

assurance, many would move on to other forms of entertainment or hobbies. Bear

Russ · March 4, 2003 1:44AM

<< <i>Mark, that would be like trying to stop odometer roll backs in the used car industry........not gonna happen.....EVER. >>

People who say it cannot be done should not interrupt those who are doing it.

Russ, NCNE

Zerbe · March 4, 2003 1:48AM

There are some people who think coin doctoring does'nt even exist!
There are some people who know it exists, but don't care !
Then there are some people who know it exists and want to do something about it. I am one of those people !

Interesting conversation between two dealers re doctors (thread from 2003)

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