A Centering Poll
graygator
Posts: 447 ✭✭✭✭
One of the ways reading this board has changed me is that it has made me focus more on centering as an important attribute of the card. I still think color, clarity, and focus of the image are more important--what good is a nice frame for an ugly picture? Yet all of the threads on centering v. corners, etc., have convinced me that centering is in fact crucial. Still, I am not sure exactly what tolerance the "centering guys" have when considering what is "good centering." Will only 50/50 both ways do, or do you give leeway, and does the leeway vary with the card? The Fisk below is well within what I consider acceptable centering, but it is not 50/50. If you value centering first, is it good enough for you? (For these purposes, view it more as a generic card, as I don't think it would be too difficult to find this particular card with 50/50 centering, as I lost out on at least 3 such auctions recently).
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Instagram: mattyc_collection
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
<< <i>I'd say centering is pretty darn good on that card.. >>
Yeah, that's why I picked it for the exercise. I think it's great, and I'm very happy with the card, but it is shifted to the right a bit. The way folks go on and on about centering I was hoping to get a better read on just how far that desire for a centered card goes.
<< <i>Personally, I agree that this card is very well centered. But, for me it would depend on which set or purpose that I would want the card for. There is one set that I am collecting that I want them as perfectly centered as possible, so for that set this card would not be acceptable for me. For most other sets, it would be more than fine. How's that answer for riding the fence? >>
I have much the same philosophy. I collect ungraded Hall of Famers, and for those condition in general isn't that important and centering even less so. I just want the cards, cheaply. But for the graded HOF Rookies set I'm putting together I'm trying hard to give centering much more prominence when choosing which cards to buy. I don't have the patience to sit and wait for months or years for a perfectly centered card, though, since it isn't the first thing that strikes my eye.
What constitutes "overboard" is really all up to the individual. What some will want and see beauty in is not necessarily for others. I am guilty of being one of the ones you just called out, since I would prefer a card with a mild crease that doesn't show up much in the light, or a well-situated crease that is unobtrusive because it does not affect the central picture, because-- to me, personally-- no light can mask problem tilt or centering. But that's just me, or whoever happens to agree with that aesthetic taste. If you dig something else, what matters is that you are happy.
I think what happens on internet message boards is that when a large amount of people agree on something, and are enthusiastic about something, those who do not subscribe to that thing tend to feel like they are being, for lack of a better word "dissed" in some way, or that their style of collecting is somehow being put down. Then their backs go up. But drawing that inference is a misstep. People can espouse their tastes with fervor without ever implying it as a sole way of being or a slight. Just like a bunch of folks can congregate and praise one political-economic-religious, really any belief system, and that mere, sheer act is not in-and-of itself a put down of any other divergent belief system.
In the end analysis, disagreement, especially among what thing looks prettiest, is natural and expected. An extremely subjective realm, this is, no matter a grading company's attempts to say "these are all 4s," or "this 10 is better than that 7."
I think that Fisk rookie card above looks very good!!!
Of course people are entitled to their tastes, I just think it's strange when that Fisk, which is very well-centered comparatively speaking, is being held up as an example of bad centering.
<< <i>For a card that is notoriously OC, that one is probably centered better than 90% of the ones I've seen. >>
Agree that this is a far better example than most. I'm a bit of a centering whore, and I would be proud to own this example, even off a touch L/R...but it might prevent me from paying a premium.
I also don't know how they grade the arch on the top in regards to centering. I personally like that that bottom border is about the same as the mid-arch. But I don't know technically, if they use top arch or straight line, or other.
<< <i>Incidentally, I can't stand tilt, even minor tilt, but 60/40 centering doesn't bother me for some reason. >>
I echo this and in fact 70/30 doesn't bother me sometimes, depending on card design and how sharp the corners are. I'm a corners guy first and foremost.
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<< <i>Personally, I think the emphasis on centering around here has gone a bit overboard. Some here seem to prefer a creased VG with perfect centering to a fresh, crisp card with 60/40...don't understand that. Centering is one aesthetic factor, not the only one. >>
So yes, a PSA 9 mint 52 Mantle rookie that is 70/30 would be replaced in my collection by a PSA 6-7 with 55/45. Centering in my view is the primary aesthetic influencer for my
cardboard desires. >>
That's cool, I know several here agree. Evidently, the majority of the hobby does not, or 60/40 centering would not be allowed in the highest grades.
WTB: PSA 1 - PSA 3 Centered, High Eye Appeal 1950's Mantle
<< <i>That's cool, I know several here agree. Evidently, the majority of the hobby does not, or 60/40 centering would not be allowed in the highest grades. >>
I don't know if I'd say that the majority of the hobby does not agree, but rather the grading companies and the rules they adopted long ago are what they are. And the grading companies are stuck in that they cannot really change their rules midstream, but a majority of collectors can decide centering and central image quality are what matter more to them than a potentially worked corner. Tastes can surely change on a mass scale over time, and it seems right now there is a bit of a disconnect in terms of what the grading companies have to abide by, and how the prevailing winds of the collectors' tastes are blowing. For example, I am just one collector and for me a mint or gem mint card has to be 50/50 or very close to it.....the grading companies think differently of course.
<< <i>Of course people are entitled to their tastes, I just think it's strange when that Fisk, which is very well-centered comparatively speaking, is being held up as an example of bad centering. >>
I certainly didn't intend this as an example of bad centering. I chose it to poll the members on because I thought it was very good centering, but not perfect, and I thought that would help me figure out better what people mean when they say centering is the number one factor for them. Because there is such a focus on centering here, and because so many awesome examples of perfectly centered cards are shared, it can seem to a new reader that anything less than perfect centering isn't acceptable to experienced, picky collectors like the ones who make up the members of this board. I suspected that what gets shown are the best examples, and that less than perfect examples most members here would also find acceptable for their collections. And that's so far been the result of the poll, which is a landslide that this is acceptable centering to most people here. As someone new to buying more expensive cards, which warrant more attention to condition, I find it encouraging that the vast majority of collectors who self-identify as centering focused don't mean that they seek out absolutely perfect centering all the time.
Also, thanks for all the votes and responses! It's been very interesting.
I would say no, so you could expect to pay about the average price of VCP, or maybe the SMR price, or the average of ebay sales. What ever you want to go by.
By no means am I saying you should buy cards purely thinking when you resale them, but when or if you do resell them, that perfectly centered card will be in much more demand than one that is not.
It is the most noticeable trait of any other.
Kiss me twice.....let's party.
As I gain more experience I am a little more picky about focus and pd's.
How does everyone else feel PSA weighs each of the four categories when assessing a final grade? Also...does anyone else feel that PSA does not take into account a tilt cut? Should there be a qualifier to take into account a tilt cut? I think so! I have seen too many cards with high grades (8s and 9s) where there is present a very distracting tilt to the image. Ugh...I hate that!
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How does everyone else feel PSA weighs each of the four categories when assessing a final grade? Also...does anyone else feel that PSA does not take into account a tilt cut? Should there be a qualifier to take into account a tilt cut? I think so! I have seen too many cards with high grades (8s and 9s) where there is present a very distracting tilt to the image. Ugh...I hate that! >>
I completely agree. I think the problem lies in how hard it is to quantify tilt. It's such a continuum, from very minor to horrendous, making it difficult to enforce.
<< <i>
<< <i> How does everyone else feel PSA weighs each of the four categories when assessing a final grade? Also...does anyone else feel that PSA does not take into account a tilt cut? Should there be a qualifier to take into account a tilt cut? I think so! I have seen too many cards with high grades (8s and 9s) where there is present a very distracting tilt to the image. Ugh...I hate that! >>
I completely agree. I think the problem lies in how hard it is to quantify tilt. It's such a continuum, from very minor to horrendous, making it difficult to enforce. >>
For now, the centering portion of the grade is supposed to factor in tilt (centering should be measured at the worst spot of a tilted card). I would love to see more objective factors used in grading and centering/tilt would seem to be the easiest portion of the grading to automate with a simple scan.
In response to the weighting of the 4 categories, there is none. Whichever of the 4 is worst is what determines the grade (absent qualifiers), with PSA more focused on centering for the half point bumps than the other top TPGs. For example, if 3 categories are 9s and one a 7, the card would be graded a 7 or at best a 7.5.
<< <i>
For now, the centering portion of the grade is supposed to factor in tilt (centering should be measured at the worst spot of a tilted card). I would love to see more objective factors used in grading and centering/tilt would seem to be the easiest portion of the grading to automate with a simple scan.
>>
Unfortunately, this approach works horribly. A card could be 60/40 at the top and 40/60 at the bottom. Technically, the centering is 60/40, and the card can get a 10. But the card would look horrifically bad.
<< <i>
<< <i>
For now, the centering portion of the grade is supposed to factor in tilt (centering should be measured at the worst spot of a tilted card). I would love to see more objective factors used in grading and centering/tilt would seem to be the easiest portion of the grading to automate with a simple scan.
>>
Unfortunately, this approach works horribly. A card could be 60/40 at the top and 40/60 at the bottom. Technically, the centering is 60/40, and the card can get a 10. But the card would look horrifically bad. >>
I'm not disagreeing
Without a price or comparison, I'm not shocked by the results of the poll, especially since it's overall a very nice card.
As far as how we weight different aspects, I thought it'd be fun to see a few cards within a similar grade range, at similar price points and see where the preference lies. I also included a few examples of a step up in price. I hope this is somewhat on-topic, and apologize to OP if not.
First Batch: 2s and 3s all went in the $2500 range. Which would you take?
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
Or for a 60% premium ($4000) you could move up to a 4...Would you?
6.
7.
Most people buying this card have to accept some flaws...which are you OK with?
Curious.
That's just my opinion though.
Instagram: mattyc_collection
I'd take #1~the diagonal crease on #3 is too distracting for me, personally, and centering is not too bad on that first PSA 2, imo, to justify passing on it (plus #3 has a slight tilt). I would not pay that kind of premium to upgrade to either one of those 4s.
Collecting 1970s Topps baseball wax, rack and cello packs, as well as PCGS graded Half Cents, Large Cents, Two Cent pieces and Three Cent Silver pieces.
When these are in hand, you may not notice a crease or how bad the corner wear is or even a stain but the centering stands out without magnification. I think that's another small reason that centering is so important.
This kind of brings up another issue: There are 2 things I hate. 1) people that pick cards a part! 2) when I pick cards a part! Point being there are a lot of people that would be proud to own any of those Mantle's, even if he was a Yankee!
And last: A PSA 9 is better than a PSA 10. Reason= When you show somebody your 10, they always find things wrong or why it shouldn't be a 10 but a PSA 9, if they find something wrong, you can tell them "Well, that's why it is not a 10!"
I do agree whoever that centering is one of the keys to eye appeal and I'm always looking to buy centered cards. That said, my favorite card in my collection is a 33 Shore with an 8 OC that looks like it was just pulled from wax. To me, the fact that the card lasted 80 years - 40 of those pre card protection - with a perfect image and squareish corners is a miracle. A centered version with scratches, wrinkles and rounded corners is far less impressive IMO.
I wholeheartedly agree with you, bro. Your 1933 Goudey Sport Kings Eddie Shore is a visual masterpiece. The registration of the painting is perfection, without the slightest of print defects. Bravo!
Just a further note on your comments about how well that pasteboard has survived the passage of time. I was involved in the swiftly growing organized adult hobby in the early 1970s. Cards were rapidly gaining value. Collectors were trying to figure out the best ways to protect their valuable gems. I remember at the huge Detroit show in the summer of 1973 watching with rapt attention as Bill Mastro showed off an album of his complete set of T-206, with Honus Wagner of course, to a few other collectors. The album he used was the kind that had a lines of "stickum" to hold the cards in place, with a clear poly or PVC cover to protect each page. A card could easily be removed, or added if you had the foresight to allow for the space of a needed card. Looked elegant.
The problem came after years of storage on those pages. With a dose of extra humidity over time, the cards became virtually GLUED to those stickum pages. Now your heart would be in your throat with each card you would try to free from this imprisonment that was supposed to offer safe, durable protection for your precious cards. What actually happened when the cards were removed was sad. Not to every card, mind you. However, for 20-33% of the cards, part of the backside ripped off and stayed on the stickum!
Keeping with your hockey theme, think of the screams you hear at a hockey game. When a collector ruined a once-prized card, his scream was just as loud as at a hockey game, but it was the scream of sadness, horror, tragedy, disbelief, shock, surprise, and the firm knowledge the damage was irreversible, and so on.
Glad your Shore also survived the early attempts of serious card collectors to preserve their best cards. Thanks for posting the image of your Eddie Shore. ---Indiana Jones (Brian Powell)
Poor centering is a "birth defect." Ditto for bad focus, PD, print lines, tilt, and overall miscuts.
Focus is really big for me alongside centering-- even Steven there. On the other hand I can live with any "blender" wear, which is to me evidence of the card having been loved. I don't want cards that left the printing press in a fundamentally flawed state.
<< <i>I think the focus on centering on these forums can sometimes get out of control. I see guys post cards that look like they went through a blender, focused on how good the centering is.
I do agree whoever that centering is one of the keys to eye appeal and I'm always looking to buy centered cards. That said, my favorite card in my collection is a 33 Shore with an 8 OC that looks like it was just pulled from wax. To me, the fact that the card lasted 80 years - 40 of those pre card protection - with a perfect image and squareish corners is a miracle. A centered version with scratches, wrinkles and rounded corners is far less impressive IMO. >>
That's a great looking card, and shows that there's value in buying cards that are technically "OC" by grading standards and that image quality is paramount. I hardly even notice the centering on that card, even with the label screaming at me to notice.