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Thread Title: SPEAKING OF WIWAG
Created On Wednesday January 07, 2004 10:49 PM


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mintyfresh
Member

Posts: 73
Joined: Aug 2002

Wednesday January 07, 2004 10:49 PM

Did the investigation ever reveal approximately how many cards were tampered with by this scumbag. Was it mostly vintage or newer stuff? I had one card from them and I thought about sending it back but I thought it was going to be more trouble than it was worth. There should be a way to get this info, unless a deal was cut to seal the results of the investigation. Anybody have any info on this subject.

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Always looking for High Grade Pete Rose @ Mint 1975 Topps

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wolfbear
Expert Collector

Posts: 4081
Joined: Mar 2002

Wednesday January 07, 2004 11:28 PM

There is this guy who posts on the stock chat board at yahoo, who seems to know.

The only stock he posts info about is CLCT ( Collectors Universe ), but he has lots of info.

It's funny he's only interested in that one stock.
He sure reminds me of someone, but I just can't think who.

-------------------------
Pix of 'My Kids'

my eBay auctions

"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"

Posts: 1270
Joined: Aug 2001

Thursday January 08, 2004 6:08 AM

I would be damn sure of my facts before saying some of the things he said.
I'm going to burn all my cards in PSA holders now. The sky is getting lower and lower.

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schr1st
Collector

Posts: 2460
Joined: Aug 2001

Thursday January 08, 2004 6:30 AM

I'm going to have to go back to my old standby: anonymous Net posters are not much of a step above raving lunatics. Either identify whom you are, or you have the believablity of the former Iraqi Information Minister.

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Who is Rober Maris?

Posts: 1670
Joined: Jan 2003

Thursday January 08, 2004 6:37 AM

I think the problem MW has is that if he revealed himself as the poster, he would have even less credibility than an anonymous poster

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dude
Expert Collector

Posts: 4157
Joined: Mar 2001

Thursday January 08, 2004 7:53 AM

wolfbear -- Thanks for the heads up on "this guy". One would think that after the Enron fiasco, investors would learn to diversify their investments, but this person seems fixated on CU. After reading his 8 messages -- each devoted to PSA/CU, it somehow seemed like deja vu all over again. Gosh, the writing patterns and syntax seem extremely familiar -- pretty much identical to that SGC poster named "Tiger". Hmmm, call me crazy, but somehow I get the impression that this guy has an ax to grind against PSA. I wonder who it could be?

I wonder if "collectorsinternational" knows that posting false information about a stock and then making recommendations on selling/holding/buying can get him in hot water with the Feds (SEC). Since he seems to be in such command of the facts, maybe we need to report him to the SEC and have some nice federal agents visit him and see if he can back up these amazing "facts".

I'd recommend all CU board members to file a complaint on-line. Here's the link:

SEC Website for reporting false or misleading statements made about a company

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"danmarkel" on eBay

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schr1st
Collector

Posts: 2460
Joined: Aug 2001

Thursday January 08, 2004 8:16 AM

This presents an interesting question: should PSA go after the person for filing libelous statements on a messageboard? In this particular case I would, but perhaps they don't have enough to be able to prove damages yet.

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Who is Rober Maris?

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packCollector
Expert Collector

Posts: 3240
Joined: Apr 2003

Thursday January 08, 2004 8:27 AM

that is pretty funny, no one will listen to him anymore on the collectors message boards so now he has to go to stock message boards to stir a ruckus. by the way, anyone know who mostpsa10 is? i am sure he is on this board

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BigKidAtHeart
Master Collector

Posts: 8820
Joined: Oct 2001

Thursday January 08, 2004 8:31 AM

<< This presents an interesting question: should PSA go after the person for filing libelous statements on a messageboard? >>

yes.
and they will at some point,
but in this case, I think the best
way for them to handle it would be to
just have someone at PSA take MW
out in a parking lot during the next big
card show and KICK HIS ASS.

that would pretty much send a message.

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schr1st
Collector

Posts: 2460
Joined: Aug 2001

Thursday January 08, 2004 9:00 AM

Posts: 191
Joined: Oct 2003

Thursday January 08, 2004 11:09 AM

I would have to agree with Sean on this. After spending a great deal of time reading about this mess CU could have done more in the aftermath to provide reassurance to their customers. I did get the feeling that they wanted to keep this disaster as quiet as possible. It was not only WIWAG who wanted to downplay the fraud.

mostpsa10 on the Yahoo message board sounds like CrazySC.

Ron

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schr1st
Collector

Posts: 2460
Joined: Aug 2001

Thursday January 08, 2004 12:09 PM

I don't think they wanted to keep this as quiet as possible, as they were updating people directly from their hompage (can't get much louder than that), I just felt that their updates were lacking in substance. I do think that over time people have embellished the # of cards affected. Anyone claiming over 100,000 cards were "adjusted" needs to have their heads "adjusted". I'd be surprised it it was more than a thousand or so.

<< I would have to agree with Sean on this. After spending a great deal of time reading about this mess CU could have done more in the aftermath to provide reassurance to their customers. I did get the feeling that they wanted to keep this disaster as quiet as possible. It was not only WIWAG who wanted to downplay the fraud. >>

-------------------------
Who is Rober Maris?

Edited: Thursday January 08, 2004 at 12:11 PM by schr1st

Posts: 191
Joined: Oct 2003

Thursday January 08, 2004 12:41 PM

<< I just felt that their updates were lacking in substance. >>

That was what I was implying. Just because you write or say something that does not mean that you are effectively communicating the facts. As a public company CU has certain legal requirements with regards to disclosures.

Regardless of CU's methods of handling this or what they should or should not have done, they certainly continue to hold the lion's share of the market.

Ron

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Mantlefan
Collector

Posts: 1504
Joined: May 2002

Thursday January 08, 2004 3:48 PM

I just had to throw my comments in on the Yahoo posts. What's sad is that until PSA or the FBI announces how many cards were affected, he can throw any # of potentially affected card out there, and not be proven wrong. I'm still ticked off at how poorly the aftermath of the whole WIWAG issue was handled by PSA.

Sean's right. As long as specific numbers are not revealed, the sky's the limit! This WIWAG fiasco is like the deficit...we all know it's there, but nobody wants to talk about it. Nevertheless, it's not going to go away. [much as PSA would like it to].

-------------------------
Frank

Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!

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dude
Expert Collector

Posts: 4157
Joined: Mar 2001

Thursday January 08, 2004 6:03 PM

Mantlefan (Frank) -- The problem is that PSA and SGC in reality doesn't know how many cards were tamper with. SGC has only been able to notice their problem because of the noticably phony labels on several different incidents. To my knowledge no serious investigations were made over these bogus labels and no legal action was ever taken against the crooks that did this. The problem is this for SGC: if these unscrupulous dealers switched the cards instead of the labels, would any of the SGC buyers ever know? I case any of you who haven't noticed, the vast majority of the SGC holders have very poor weld jobs and have the appearance of tampering already (frosted patches around the perimeter of the holder).

As for the WIWAG incident, if you go on eBay and look at WIWAG's feedback, you will notice that they bought a lot of cards too. I never bought a card from WIWAG nor Grade & Trade, but I do know a lot of people that did and most of those cards purchased by those collectors were not tampered with. Here's a message that was posted by "rob71rgd98" several months ago who did buy a bad card from WIWAG and this is probably the best perspective on the whole incident:

I agree that it would be ideal to have a list of PSA cards with potential WIWAG problems. However, I don't see how such a list could be compiled accurately, given the myriad sources from which such cards could have been submitted. And to me, an inaccurate list would be worse than no list at all.

Having said that, I believe it is not as big a problem as everyone here seems to think. I used to own a WIWAG-switched card, a 1966 PSA 8 Willie Mays. I bought the card directly from WIWAG in about January 2002. I remembered when I received it that I thought it was a little weak for an 8, but I was too busy to follow up on it at the time. After the scandal broke, I returned it to PSA for review, and they re-cased it into a PSA 7 slab. I received full restitution from WIWAG.

As for the PSA slab- it showed obvious signs of tampering. It was very clear in looking at the slab that it had been tampered with. The bottom edge was cloudy, not clear, and there was a small crack about 1/8" up from the bottom right corner. The slab had been sealed shut, but it was easy to detect the tampering, if you knew to look for it. Prior to the WIWAG scandal, I simply did not look as carefully at the slabs as I shold have. I have since gone through all my PSA cards to look for similar signs of tampering, and have found none. Whenever I purchase new cards, I always carefully examine the slabs for signs of tampering, as well as examine the card to see that it fits the grade. I strongly believe that WIWAG was not able to switch cards without showing some sign of tampering on the slab. I just don't believe it is possible to open a PSA slab without causing some damage to the slab. Therefore, I believe it is up to the collector to carefully inspect every PSA card purchased for signs of tampering, and also inspect the card itself to see if it appears to fit the grade.

Of course it would be great if we knew all the cards that were switched by WIWAG. However, I don't think PSA can be the source for that information. I'm sure WIWAG submitted many cards that were never tampered with. I also purchased one other card directly from WIWAG before the scandal- a 1966 PSA 9 common. I have examined that card very carefully, and I am absolutely certain that it is a legitimate 9. It is also probably true that WIWAG switched some cards that they bought elsewhere, i.e. that they did not submit themselves. So any list of cards submitted by WIWAG would not only include cards that were not tampered with, but would be missing cards that might be tampered with. Such a list would be worthless, or even less than worthless, i.e. dangerously misleading.

Collectors need to take responsibility for their own purchases.

-------------------------
"danmarkel" on eBay

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wolfbear
Expert Collector

Posts: 4081
Joined: Mar 2002

Friday January 09, 2004 12:12 AM

Dude - great post !

By the way, My-Big-Toe ... err ... I mean Legatosys,
is now a part of the yahoo CLCT message board circus.

What's it doing to those guys guts to be so full of hate and bile ?

-------------------------
Pix of 'My Kids'

my eBay auctions

"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"

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Gottabuyit
Member

Posts: 166
Joined: Jan 2004

Friday January 09, 2004 12:15 AM

<< Did the investigation ever reveal approximately how many cards were tampered with by this scumbag. Was it mostly vintage or newer stuff? I had one card from them and I thought about sending it back but I thought it was going to be more trouble than it was worth. There should be a way to get this info, unless a deal was cut to seal the results of the investigation. Anybody have any info on this subject. >>

Unless when it was a crime kept records of all they did, there is no way of truly knowing how many cards they tampered with.

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Gottabuyit
Member

Posts: 166
Joined: Jan 2004

Friday January 09, 2004 12:15 AM

I'm sure it hurt psa graded card sales just a bit.

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schr1st
Collector

Posts: 2460
Joined: Aug 2001

Friday January 09, 2004 6:44 AM

Does anyone here know of the allegedly new WIWAG eBay ID that was being mentioned on that thread?

-------------------------
Who is Rober Maris?

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dude
Expert Collector

Posts: 4157
Joined: Mar 2001

Friday January 09, 2004 8:49 AM

wolfbear -- Thanks for the kudos and keep up the good work on keeping an eye out for whoever these demented individuals are. I can't put my finger on it, but they just seem so familiar, but for now I'll just refer to them as "Dr. Evil" and "#2" with their "Weapons of Mass Misinformation".

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"danmarkel" on eBay

Edited: Friday January 09, 2004 at 8:55 AM by dude

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